- The United States is getting increasingly secular, right?

And so we're moving away from religion in general.

But there are pockets that are growing.

And I think there's kind of a natural hunger for a relationship with God.

I think that's part of who we are.

And I think you do see that today, people looking for a sense of spirituality, if not religion.

(lively music) - Hello, and welcome to "GZERO World."

I'm Ian Bremmer.

And today we are talking about religion in America and around the world, and that's because the biggest religion story of the year has to do with America and the world.

Yes, I'm talking about Pope Leo XIV, the world's first, maybe not the last, American pope.

By now you probably read pieces on the man himself, on his flawless Spanish or his deeply flawed White Sox fandom, but I'm more interested in the geopolitical implications of his ascendancy.

President Trump, for instance, has already suggested that Pope Leo could maybe mediate peace between Russia and Ukraine since Trump can't do it.

And beyond the man himself, what can the world's first American pope tell us about religion in America today?

To talk about all that and more, I'm joined by Father James Martin.

He's a bestselling author and Jesuit priest who knows Pope Leo personally.

Don't worry, I've also got your "Puppet Regime."

- Hello, Donald.

- But first, a word from the folks who help us keep the lights on.

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- [Announcer] Every day, all over the world, Prologis helps businesses of all sizes lower their carbon footprint (bright music) and scale their supply chains with a portfolio of logistics and real estate and an end-to-end solutions platform addressing the critical initiatives of global logistics today.

Learn more at prologis.com.

- [Announcer] And by: Cox Enterprises is proud to support GZERO.

Cox is working to create an impact in areas like sustainable agriculture, clean tech, healthcare, and more.

Cox, a family of businesses.

Additional funding provided by Jerre and Mary Joy Stead, Carnegie Corporation of New York, and... (lively music) (gentle music) - Are you there, God?

It's me, America.

Let me edit that famous Judy Blume book title to make a point.

Americans wanna believe.

It's not a question, that's a fact.

According to a Pew survey that I'll return to in a moment, 92% of Americans believe in the existence of a soul or something beyond the natural world, but how they practice those beliefs is complicated.

(lively music) It's a big topic, so I'll break it down into a tale of two different surveys.

Let's start with the long view.

When Gallup first asked Americans in 1965, "Is religion very important to you?"

70% responded yes, 7% responded no.

By 2023, the yeses had dropped to 45%, the nos up to 28%.

That same survey also showed that less than half of Americans in 2023, 45%, belonged to a formal house of worship.

When Gallup first asked that question back in 1937, 73% said they were members of a church.

So there you go, data points telling the same story of a country sliding into secularism over the better part of the last century.

But you remember that Pew survey I started with, the one that showed that 9 in 10 Americans today are spiritual?

Turns out it's the largest survey Pew has ever conducted: 37,000 respondents compared to the typical 1 to 2,000.

It offers a fascinating snapshot of religious stabilization in the last five years in the United States.

It shows a steady decline in the Christian share of the adult population from 78% in 2007 to 71% in 2014, no surprise.

But also shows it leveling off in the past five years right about 62%.

It also shows that since 2021, the percentage of Americans who say they pray every day has held consistent, around 45%.

Doesn't say what they pray for.

And it shows that since 2020, the number of Americans who attend religious services monthly also remained consistent, about 33%.

So how do we reconcile the Gallup and Pew surveys?

Easily.

Over the long term, religion has declined in America, but in the short term, Americans need God.

It might even be making a comeback.

Maybe all of that doom scrolling on our couches during the pandemic made us yearn for community and connection that religion can provide.

Or maybe the places where we've sought communal connection in the past, like in our corner bar or the bowling alley or the weekly spin class, SoulCycle, there you go, just aren't cutting it.

Americans today are as spiritual as they've ever been, give or take, but now they're willing, for the moment at least, to maybe reconsider organized religion.

And then there's politics in both Washington and Rome and a MAGA controlled US capital.

Conservative Christianity is ascendant.

And in the Vatican, the world's first American Pope has reinvigorated the Catholic Church here at home.

Joining to talk about that and more is a man who has met Pope Leo himself and who has dedicated his life to spreading the gospel: Jesuit priest and bestselling author Father James Martin.

Father James Martin, great to have you back on the show.

- Good to be back.

- A little bit of news in your place.

- Yep, got a new boss.

- Yeah.

How do you feel about that?

- He's great.

I knew him a little bit before his election, and I think he's very open.

He's modest, he's humble, soft-spoken, but as one of his Augustinian brothers told me, not a pushover.

- [Ian] Now, you were in Rome at the time of the Conclave.

- [Father Martin] Mm-hmm.

- When it's going on, of course, no one is saying anything.

As soon as it's over, everyone's saying everything.

What was it like?

What was the buzz from people inside, for people talking to folks inside, after the decision was made?

- After the decision, people were basically scrambling to find out who this guy was.

He was known.

He was on a lot of people's lists.

I would say, if you asked me at that time, I would have said maybe six or seven, a kind of compromise candidate, but he wasn't as some of the other contenders.

So, yeah, just people digging into his background.

And I think the more they found out, the more impressed people were.

Believe it or not, because he spoke English, I think appealed to a lot of people, appealed to people from the Far East for whom Italian isn't a natural language, English-speaking Africa.

The Latin Americans loved him because he was in Peru for a long time.

And I think people just really respect him.

He's a very holy guy.

And I think within four ballots he was the man.

So it happened pretty quickly, from what I hear you.

- You just said he's a very holy guy.

I would think that just about anyone you would pick would be considered a very holy guy.

What does it mean for you to say that?

- It's someone whose life is centered on Jesus.

He's humble.

His whole world has been serving others.

He's very modest.

And, yeah, I think he's someone who, I think, that you could see immediately as holy.

That's my sense.

When I met him, I found him a very prayerful person.

And, yeah, everybody is in their own way, but he is, I would say, demonstrably so.

I's obvious when you meet him he's a real person of prayer.

- And you've spent a fair amount of time with him before he became pope.

I understand you've told me he's quiet, he doesn't say much generally in a social environment, but he certainly has views.

What did you take away from him in terms of kind of things he thought about the Church and the role the Church should be playing?

- We don't have to guess because he's told us in two ways.

One, with his choice of name, Leo XIV, which is a nod to Leo XIII, who is the father of Catholic social teaching, so standing for the workers, rights of the poor.

But also he's been pretty open in his speeches to cardinals and other diplomats about what he wants to do: to continue the legacy of Pope Francis, to continue the legacy of Vatican II, to stand up for those who are suffering.

So he's been already pretty blunt about where he wants to lead the Church.

- He's made, already, some statements on Russia-Ukraine, on Israel-Palestine.

Do you see Pope Leo as someone that is likely to play an active diplomatic role globally?

- Yeah, I think any pope is called upon to play some sort of diplomatic role.

He has mentioned peace many times, and so he's, I think, offered, as far as I know, the Vatican as a place for negotiations between Russia and Ukraine.

But I wouldn't be surprised if peace and peacemaking and peace-building was a part of his papacy, but really that's every pope.

I mean, his first message on the balcony after his election was, "Peace to all of you."

(Pope Leo speaking in foreign language) - So literally his first words to the world and to the Church are peace, so I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't a real theme of his papacy.

- The world is not replete with peace these days.

What does the Catholic Church need to do?

What kind of leadership should the Catholic pope play to help change the trajectory that the world seems to be on right now?

- I think the first place to start might be within the Church.

There are different competing factions, and so bringing peace to the Church, bringing a sense of unity, which he has talked about.

But really, he's continuing the legacy of, I mean, every modern pope.

John XXIII wrote an encyclical called "Peace on Earth" during the Cold War.

Paul VI said, "If you want peace, work for justice."

John Paul was obviously very involved in peace, so was Benedict, so was Francis.

So it's nothing new for the pope to get involved in peace.

We want an end to war.

The great quote, one of the great quotes from St. John Paul is: "War is always a defeat for humanity."

And so this has been a consistent theme of popes, and it will be for Pope Leo.

- People talk about him as the first American Pope.

He's not only an American pope, of course.

Do you think of him as an American pope?

And what does that mean to you?

- Well, funny enough, I was corrected a number of times for saying American pope.

They say, "Well, Francis was from the Americas too," so I guess we're supposed to say the first US pope.

But absolutely, I think he's going to inject new life into the American Church.

I also think he's the one to really bridge the gap between the right and the left, the progressives and the traditionalists, in the US Church.

And, you know, I think US church leaders and politicians and even Catholics aren't going to be able to say that the Pope doesn't understand the United States or doesn't understand the United States Church.

So I think he's gonna be a real leader.

And just it's very exciting.

I mean, imagine him going to Chicago, right, going back to Chicago, going to Villanova.

It's actually hard to describe since we've never had it, but I think he's gonna be a real shot in the arm for the US Church.

- I mean, Americans go crazy for any pope when they come to the United States, right?

I mean, and that's been true as long as I've been alive.

But it is probably electrifying, right, in the sense that not only there are a lot of Catholics, but most Americans, in fact, the vast majority of Americans consider themselves spiritual.

- Sure.

And so- - 90%.

- Yeah.

And thank God, I would say.

And he's a moral leader just by virtue of the fact that he's been elected pope.

But I think to have someone who can speak English, speaks American English, really removes the distance between Catholics and the Vatican.

You know, the Vatican is seen as kinda this foreign, strange place where the Pope speaks with an accent, and even when they speak English, right, it's accented.

So I think it just sort of lessens the distance between the average Catholic and the Vatican, which means it lessens the distance between the average Catholic and the Church, and therefore God because people, you know, make that connection.

So I think it's a great spiritual move.

- You started, when I asked about the pope bringing peace, the first thing you said was about competing factions inside the Church, brought it back inside.

How does it feel?

You're obviously on one side of that, right?

I mean, you've been very outspoken for a lot of progressive rights and a lot of reform inside the Church.

How does it feel today in the Catholic Church?

What does it mean for there to be conflict inside the Church?

- Well, it's against what Jesus wants.

Jesus says, "That they all may be one."

We're supposed to be a sign of unity.

And it's a real pain for a lot of people, and it's a pain for me, you know, that there's so much division in the Church and anger.

And there was a lot of critique leveled at Pope Francis, which I thought was really unfair.

So that was really divisive, I thought.

But I do think Pope Leo has the ability and the capacity and the opportunity to really bridge these gaps.

I think there are ways that he's already reached out in different gestures to traditionalists and progressives.

He's more and more traditionalist, I would say.

Vesture, right?

When he came out on the balcony, he was- - Traditional.

- Yeah, wearing the mozzetta and the cross.

He sang in Latin the Regina Caeli.

- [Ian] He's gone back to the papal apartment.

- He has, yeah, and yet he's also said that he wants to continue Pope Francis' legacy.

So I think there's already, in the first few days, this sense of trying to build those bridges, which I think is fantastic.

I think a lot of Catholics are very grateful for that, especially in the U.S. - It's almost impossible for a pope not to enter the political fray, as much as you wanna be above partisanship.

We've already seen from his brother, for example, said that he's been not happy with, critical of U.S. migration policy right now.

What do you think his orientation implies?

- Well, this is not meant to be glib, but his orientation is the gospel, and the gospel talks about welcoming the stranger.

And popes have said this for generations.

So he proclaims the gospel, and if it has a political sort of outcome, so be it, I think he feels.

The Catholic Church has always been on the side of the migrant and the refugee.

Jesus tells us to welcome the stranger.

So he's been pretty clear so far, as Francis was clear.

And I think the Church is gonna continue to stand on the side of people who are the stranger.

There's lots in the gospel that might be a little confusing, but when Jesus says, "When you welcome the stranger, you welcome me," that's pretty clear.

- The American that's been most public in talking about engaging with Pope Leo so far has been Vice President J.D.

Vance, Catholic, has publicly been talking a lot about, "Well, actually love thy neighbor, I mean, really, you know, if you look at the Bible, it focuses first on yourself and your family and your community, and then you can talk about other people down the line."

That's clearly not the reading that either you have or the pope has.

How public do you think the pope should be in discussing these sorts of things when he's engaging with U.S. political figures?

- Well, sometimes directness is called for.

Pope Francis wrote a response to this misinterpretation of what's called the Ordo Amoris, the Order of Love, which basically was misinterpreted to say that, you know, family first and friends and then neighbors, and then maybe when you have something left over, you know, to people on the outside.

That is not Catholic teaching, right, and it... We are called to care for people that we don't know.

I think Pope Francis was clear about that in the letter.

The pope and the Vatican decide when to be direct.

Usually they're oblique.

They don't want to be seen as sort of picking fights, right, or responding to individual people.

And besides, the migration and refugee crisis is worldwide, so it's more likely that he's going to do something that's more universal.

I mean, as I said before, it's the Gospel, it's not politics, and they try to be diplomatic as well to also be neutral.

- As someone who grew up in Catholic school myself, the world is very, very different today than it was when you and I were growing up.

Opportunities are different, challenges are different.

I'm wondering how you relate to that as someone who's devoted your life to Jesus Christ.

- Well, I think, you know, the United States is getting increasingly secular, right, and so we're moving away from religion in general.

I think you could say that about the world.

But there are pockets that are growing.

And I think there's kind of a natural hunger for a relationship with God, I think that's part of who we are.

And so I think if you remove it from people's lives, there's gonna be this kind of responding hunger.

And I think you do see that today, people looking for a sense of spirituality, if not religion.

I think people are more turned off by religion than they are by spirituality.

Yeah, I think the danger about spiritual but not religious, which is the popular way of saying it, is that you divorce yourself from the community.

And as one Catholic once said, "The community connects you and corrects you," so it connects you to other people.

It's very hard to be spiritual by yourself.

If you're spiritual just by yourself, sometimes the danger is, "Oh, it's just me and God."

And if it's just me and God, then whenever it pops into your head is okay because, you know, "I'm okay with God and God's okay with me."

A community, I think, corrects you.

So, for example, if you say, "I never have to take care of poor people, you know, 'cause I'm fine with that, and that's what God wants," the community and the history and the tradition are gonna say, "Yeah, that's not exactly what we're talking about," and will push you a little bit and will challenge you.

So there's a correction.

There's also a connection.

We're naturally social beings, and I think being by yourself with God is just, it's kind of untenable.

You wanna naturally be with people and worship God together, so I think that's...

When you say spiritual but not religious, I think that's what people are sort separating themselves from, that correction and that connection, and we need both.

- The interesting thing about the world today, of course, is that it is moving faster and faster at a time that many institutions, and the Church is one of the most important, is, for good and for bad, like, really much more stable.

I think about artificial intelligence, which Pope Leo actually mentioned publicly early on, and the fact that in a very short period of time human beings are going to be very different than they are right now: engaged with these new devices, changing who they are as people.

How does the Catholic Church respond to the idea that humanity might not be homo sapiens for long?

- Well, the first thing is that there's a real reverence for the human person.

I mean, that.. You know, human dignity, that's a foundational Catholic teaching, right?

I mean, St. John Paul wrote about that very effectively.

So that's the first thing.

But I've actually been impressed with how on the ball the Vatican has been with AI.

They've had a number of documents about it, conferences about it, and it's pretty amazing that Pope Leo would mention this in his first week.

Now, Pope Leo XIII was responding, with his first encyclical, to the Industrial Revolution, and Leo XIV has said that there's another kind of revolution going on.

So I would not be surprised if you saw an encyclical or some major writing about AI.

Yeah, the key is the focus on the human, the emphasis on the human so that the human being doesn't just become, you know, like a cog in a machine, you know, which happens in, happened in the Industrial Revolution, right, but it will happen probably in, you know, the AI Revolution but in a different way.

- You've personally been very outspoken on issues that today many would consider woke, LGBTQ specifically.

Transgenderism in the United States right now has become, you know, a touch-the-stove issue.

Does this make it feel more urgent for you to lean in on those issues?

Or do you think actually maybe some went too far in progressivism and need to look towards things that will unify the country and the people better?

- Well, it's like the parable of the Good Samaritan.

When the guy's lying by the side of the road and has been beaten, we can either pass him by or help, right?

And I think that LGBT people, and particularly transgender people, are really being treated like dirt these days in many parts of the world, and so we're called to help them.

So I think the more that they are attacked, the more urgent it becomes for us to stand with them, right?

It's really shocking to me that, particularly with the transgender community, which I'm not an expert on this, but, I mean, it's such a minuscule part of the population, it's become this outsized almost focus for so many people.

And I think what we really need to do is just, you know, accompany them and be kind to them and listen to them, that's the first thing, because many people who are talking about it, I don't think have ever met a transgender person in their life, so... Pope Francis, on the other hand, you know, met regularly with transgender people towards the end of his life, I think monthly.

And he didn't change any doctrine on it, but he, you know, met with them as human beings.

This is part of human dignity, right?

We treat people with dignity if they're a migrant, if they're a refugee, if they're unborn, if they're an inmate, if they're on death row, if they're transgender.

So it's all part of the treating people with dignity.

- I was also impressed with his regular engagement, I guess it was every week, with this church in Gaza.

- Yeah, Gaza.

Every night.

- Was it every night?

- Every night.

- Every night while the war was going on?

- Mm-hmm.

- Every night he found time for them no matter where he was.

- [Father Martin] Yeah.

(Pope Francis speaking in foreign language) (Youssef speaking in foreign language) (Pope Francis speaking in foreign language) - And they had little videos of him calling Holy Family, I think it's called, in Gaza.

It's wonderful.

I mean, he is the spiritual father of the Church and he's the spiritual father of the parish too.

And I think just his desire to accompany people really came through.

That's what one of the sort themes of his papacy was: accompaniment, being with people, listening to people, meeting them one-on-one.

And I think he did that very well.

I mean, that's a very effective sign of his pastoral outreach; he's the pastor.

- So in terms of the impact he had on the Church, what do you think he'll most be remembered for?

- I think Francis will be remembered for the kind of person he was: open, merciful, loving, compassionate, listening, in addition to the more ecclesial things he did like his encyclical on the environment, which I think is revolutionary: "Laudato si'."

But I think they'll see in him someone who went to the margins and brought people in.

One of his images which he used at the very beginning of his papacy was the Church as a field hospital, which I'd never heard.

And I kept thinking of, like, "MASH," you know, the old TV show, where, field hospital, people coming in and out.

- Hawkeye right there.

- Exactly.

- See, you got to move.

- Well- - Yeah.

- And taking care of people who are wounded, providing a rest stop for people, you know, calling people in.

I think that's a really image of the Church, and I think he was someone who really put that into action.

I mean, whether or not it was meeting with transgender people or calling a church in Gaza, right, or standing up for the environment, I mean, he's really calling people into this place of welcome.

- Father James Martin, thanks for joining us.

- My pleasure.

(light music) - And now it's time for something a little different, but no less spiritual.

I've got your "Puppet Regime."

- Hello, Donald.

- You listen to me, Vladimir.

(sniffs) If you don't end the war in Ukraine, I'm gonna put sanctions on you.

- No, you won't.

- You're right, I won't, but I will give you tons of money instead.

- What, are you Qatar now?

I don't want tons of money.

- [Puppet Trump] What do you want?

- I want Ukraine.

- But I'll give you money.

- Does this money come with Ukraine?

- No.

- Well, then no.

You know, not everything is about- - Money.

- Ukraine.

- Money.

- Ukraine.

- Got me again.

Listen, J.D.

and I are getting a little fed up with this charade.

If you don't do what we want, we are prepared to very strongly abandon Ukraine and drop the whole thing.

Is that what you want?

- Yes.

- Well, then you...

Wait, what?

♪ Puppet Regime.

♪ - That's our show this week.

Come back next week.

And if you like what you've seen, or even if you don't but you think you should have been selected Pope, white smoke for you, why don't you check us out at gzeromedia.com?

(lively music) (lively music continues) (lively music continues) (lively music continues) (gentle music) - [Announcer] Funding for "GZERO World" is provided by our lead sponsor Prologis.

- [Announcer] Every day, all over the world, Prologis helps businesses of all sizes lower their carbon footprint (bright music) and scale their supply chains with a portfolio of logistics and real estate and an end-to-end solutions platform addressing the critical initiatives of global logistics today.

Learn more at prologis.com - [Announcer] And by: Cox Enterprises is proud to support GZERO.

Cox is working to create an impact in areas like sustainable agriculture, clean tech, healthcare, and more.

(lively music) Cox, a family of businesses.

Additional funding provided by Jerre and Mary Joy Stead, Carnegie Corporation of New York, and.

(lively music) (triumphant music)