>> Bonnie: THIS WEEK ON "TO THE CONTRARY", DEMOCRATIC POLLSTER CELINDA LAKE WITH THE LATEST ON THE WOMEN'S VOTE.

THEN OUR PANEL REACTS AND REMEMBERS SUPREME COURT JUSTICE RUTH BADER GINSBURG AND LOOKS AHEAD TO THE FIGHT TO FILL HER SEAT.

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE, HOST OF TRYING TO, A WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

THIS WEEK, THE NATION SAYS GOODBYE TO SUPREME COURT JUSTICE RUTH BADER GINSBURG, A PIONEER FOR WOMEN'S LEGAL RIGHTS AND THE SENATE BATTLE OVER FILLING HER SEAT ON THE COURT, JUST WEEKS BEFORE ELECTION DAY WITH AMERICANS ALREADY VOTING IN SOME STATES.

JOINING ME NOW IS DEMOCRATIC POLLSTER AND POLITICAL STRATEGIST CELINDA LAKE, AND I MAY SAY, CELINDA, PROBABLY THE PREEMINENT EXPERT IN THE NATION ON THE WOMEN'S VOTE.

HOW ARE YOU?

>> Celinda Lake: OH, GREAT TO BE HERE.

THANK YOU FOR THE GENEROUS INTRODUCTION.

>> Bonnie: WE'VE ONLY BEEN TALKING FOR 20 SOME ODD YEARS NOW, RIGHT?

>> Celinda Lake: OH, YEAH.> Bonnie: SO FIRST OF ALL, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE WOMEN'S VOTE.

HOW COULD WOMEN BE UNDECIDED AT THIS POINT IN THE RACE?

I DON'T THINK THERE HAS EVER BEEN AS STARK A CONTRAST BETWEEN THE CHOICES FOR PRESIDENT AS THERE ARE IN 2020.

>> Celinda Lake: IT'S SO TRUE IN THE STATES CANNOT BE HIGHER FOR WOMEN.

SO WOMEN THAT ARE UNDER UNDECIDED, THEIR ONLY A COUPLE PERCENTAGE POINTS UNDECIDED.

BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF WOMEN WHO ARE SOFT SUPPORTERS OF THEIR CANDIDATES AND, REALLY, HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO MOVE BACK AND FORTH.

WOMEN ARE THE VOTERS WHO ARE PUTTING JOE BIDEN IN THE LEAD RIGHT NOW.

THERE IS A HUGE GENDER GAP AND THAT BEING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE VOTING OF WOMEN AND MEN AND A RECORD NUMBER OF WOMEN MARRIED TO TRUMP VOTERS.

UNDER A LOT OF PRESSURE TO SHIFT THEIR VOTE.

>> Bonnie: SO TELL ME ABOUT THOSE MARGINS NATIONALLY AND IN THE KEY BATTLEGROUND STATES.

WHAT ARE THE WOMEN, PERCENTAGE OF WOMEN WHO CHOOSE BIDEN -- OVER OF COURSE SUPPORTING BIDEN OVER TRUMP?

>> Celinda Lake: SO DEPENDING ON THE STATE, WOMEN ARE VOTING FOR BIDEN BY ANYWHERE FROM 15 TO 22 POINTS, AND YOU SEE A PARTICULARLY LARGE MARGIN IN THE SUBURBS, YOU SEE SENIOR WOMEN VOTING IN RECORD NUMBERS FROM THE DEMOCRATS, MUCH MORE THAN THEY DID FOR HILLARY CLINTON, FOR EXAMPLE.

YOU SEE IN EVERY GROUP WOMEN MORE SUPPORTIVE THAN MEN.

AND ONE OF THE PLACES YOU SEE A BIG GENDER GAP IS AMONG LATINO VOTERS WHERE LATINAS ARE LIKE DONE WITH TRUMP.

HE ENDANGERED THEIR CHILDREN, ENDANGERED THEIR FAMILIES.

THEY ARE DONE.

LATINO MEN ARE STILL FLIRTING WITH WHETHER OR NOT TO VOTE FOR TRUMP.

>> Bonnie: REALLY?

LATINO MAN, WHY?

WHY THE DIFFERENCE?

>> Celinda Lake: MORE FOCUSED ON THE ECONOMY, LIKE HIS STRONG PERSONALITY, MORE CONSERVATIVE, AND NOT AS FOCUSED ON COVID IS THE WOMEN ARE.

>> Bonnie: WHAT IS THE CHIEF CHARACTERISTICS OF JOE BIDEN THAT IS ATTRACTING WOMEN, OR IS IT REALLY JUST AN ANTI-TRUMP VOTE MORE THAN, MORE THAN PRO BIDEN?

>> Celinda Lake: NO, IT IS PROVIDING TOO.

THEY REALLY APPEALED TO BUY STABILITY.

YOU KNOW, WOMEN WERE REALLY -- NEVER ELECTRON'S PERSONAL STYLE BUT THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, WE DIDN'T ELECT A POLITICIAN, WE ELECTED A BUSINESSMAN.

THIS IS WHAT YOU EXPECT.BUT IN THE AREA OF COVID, WHAT WAS A PERSONALITY BECAME A GOVERNING STYLE AND WOMEN DON'T LIKE THAT GOVERNING STYLE.

THEY THINK THE PRESIDENT PROMOTES DIVISION AS A POLITICAL STRATEGY, THAT HE FOMENTS VIOLENCE AND DESTRUCTION AND THAT HE HAS BROUGHT CHAOS LITERALLY TO THE KITCHEN TABLES.

>> Bonnie: AND HOW WORRIED ARE WOMEN ABOUT RACIAL DIVISIONS IN THIS COUNTRY AND WHAT THAT IS GOING TO DO TO THE FUTURE OF THE COUNTRY, PERIOD, AND THEN ALSO THE FUTURE OF THE ECONOMY?

IF WE HAVE RIOTS GOING ON, WERE NOT REALLY EXPECTING TO HAVE A VERY STRONG ECONOMY.

>> Celinda Lake: YEAH.

NOW, OF COURSE, MOST OF THE PASTORS PROTESTERS ARE PEACEFUL, BUT YOU FIND WOMEN DRAWN BOTH WAYS, RIGHT?

WOMEN VERY ORIENTED TOWARD RACIAL DIVISION, WANTING TO DO SOMETHING BETTER.

WOMEN VERY, VERY MOVED BY GEORGE FLOYD, CALLING OUT FOR HIS MOTHER AS HE WAS DYING.

THAT REALLY WAS VISCERAL FOR WOMEN.

ON THE FLIPSIDE, THE ADMINISTRATION IS FOSTERING THIS LAW AND ORDER VIOLENCE RHETORIC AND THAT IS VERY APPEALING TO WOMEN AS WELL.

SO THEY ARE REALLY TORN.

WHAT IS INTERESTING IS I WOULD SAY THE LAW AND ORDER VIOLENCE DYNAMIC HAS REALLY BACKFIRED AND IT HASN'T REALLY PARTICULARLY CAUGHT ON WITH SUBURBAN WOMEN.

BUT THE DIVISION PIECE AND DELIBERATELY DIVIDING THE COUNTRY AND DIVISION GETTING THE WAY OF GETTING ANYTHING DONE IS VERY, VERY SALIENT TO WOMEN.

WOMEN ALSO RESENT DEEPLY THAT THE PRESIDENT WILL NOT LISTEN TO EXPERTS, WON'T LISTEN TO ANYBODY, WON'T LISTEN TO THEM ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON FOR THEIR FAMILIES AND THEIR JOBS AND THEIR KIDS AND THEIR COMMUNITIES.

AND SO, THERE IS JUST A GOVERNING STYLE HERE THAT IS VERY ALIENATING FOR WOMEN.

>> Bonnie: WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE MOST SALIENT POINT FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT ATTRACTS WOMEN TO HIM?

BECAUSE I ASKED THE SAME QUESTION ABOUT BIDEN.

>> Celinda Lake: SO THE THING THAT REALLY ATTRACTS PEOPLE IS THAT HE HAS CHANGED AND THEY WOULD STILL LIKE CHANGE.

THEY ARE VERY CYNICAL ABOUT POLITICS AND ECONOMY.

THE ECONOMY IS WHAT'S REALLY HOLDING THE PRESIDENT UP.

AND FILLMORE THAT COVID IS LINKED TO THE ECONOMY, THAT WE CAN FORGET THEY ECONOMY REALLY GOING UNTIL WE DEAL WITH COVID, THE MORE YOU VOTE AGAINST TRUMP, THE MORE YOU ARE FOCUSED ON, OKAY, WHERE'S THE RECOVERY HEADED?

THE MORE YOU VOTE FOR TRUMP.

>> Bonnie: THERE ARE 30 MILLION+ CLOSER TO 40 MILLION AMERICANS OUT OF WORK.

ARE UNEMPLOYED WOMEN STILL VOTING FOR TRUMP IF THE ECONOMY IS THEIR BIGGEST ISSUE?

>> Celinda Lake: SOME OF THEM ARE, BELIEVE IT OR NOT.

I KNOW IT'S HARD TO SAY.

IN PART IT'S BECAUSE THEY THINK THAT TRUMP IS NOT SOLELY STILL RESPONSIBLE FOR COVID, THAT IT WAS UNIQUE ACT AND HE IS MORE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HE DID ABOUT IT BUT NOT NECESSARILY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE INITIAL LOSS.

THEY TOYED WITH THE IDEA WITH MAYBE YOU NEED A BUSINESSMAN TO REALLY GET THE ECONOMY GOING, BUT WOMEN ARE ALSO MORE FOCUSED ON TWO OTHER THINGS: THEY'RE MORE FOCUSED ON WHO'S BENEFITING IN THIS RECOVERY.

YOU KNOW, IS IT RITZ CARLTON OR IS IT BERTHA'S CAFE, WHO GOT THE, THE HEALTH, IN THE SECOND THING THAT WOMEN ARE VERY FOCUSED ON AND I THINK THE SUPREME COURT VACANCY WILL ELEVATE THIS AS WELL AS HEALTHCARE, WOMEN ARE THE HEALTHCARE BROKERS, 80 PERCENT ARE WOMEN.

WOMEN ARE STILL ONE THAT REALLY VOTE, WHETHER PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS ARE COVERED, WHETHER THEIR MOTHER'S PRESCRIPTION DRUGS ARE PRICE GOUGING ARE NOT, WHAT THE VACCINE IS GOING TO COST, WHETHER IT WILL BE SAFER THEIR KIDS.

THEY REALLY ARE THE HEALTHCARE VOTERS.

AND HEALTHCARE IS THE ONE ISSUE WHERE THEY TELL THE MEN IN THEIR LIVES WHAT TO DO AND AT LEAST THE MEN ADMITTED.

>> Bonnie: AND WE WILL GET TO THE SUPREME COURT ISSUE IN A MOMENT.

BUT I DO WANT TO ASK YOU, WOULD IMPACT HIS KAMALA HARRIS HAVING WITH WOMEN VOTERS AND WOMEN OF COLOR VOTERS?

YOU KNOW, THE STANDARD MAXIMUM IS THAT PEOPLE DON'T VOTE FOR VICE PRESIDENT.

IS THAT HOLDING WITH THE SELECTION AS WELL?

>> Celinda Lake: WELL, INITIALLY SHE WAS VERY, VERY ENERGIZING TO THE TICKET, PARTICULARLY WITH YOUNGER WOMEN, PARTICULARLY WITH WOMEN OF COLOR, LATINAS AS WELL AS AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN AND MEN TOO FOR THAT MATTER, HONESTLY.

SO VERY ENERGIZING.

IT IS TRUE THAT VPs AND PRESIDENTS MERGE TOGETHER IN THEIR IMAGES, AND YOU SEE THAT PROCESS HAPPENING, BUT THOSE GROUPS IN PARTICULAR ARE REALLY EXCITED ABOUT HAVING A WOMAN ON THE TICKET AND A WOMAN OF COLOR ON THE TICKET.

LOVE HER ENERGY, LOVE THE GENERATION THAT SHE REPRESENTS, LIKE HER RECORD ON ISSUES, LIKE THAT SHE STOOD UP FOR PEOPLE ON HEALTHCARE AND HOUSING AND PREDATORY LENDING, LIKE THE WAY SHE HANDLED HERSELF ON THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE AND INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE.

SO THERE'S A LOT OF EXCITEMENT THAT CAME FROM HAVING SENATOR HARRIS ON THE TICKET.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

NOW LET'S GET TO THE DEATH OF THE BELOVED SUPREME COURT JUSTICE RUTH BADER GINSBURG AND THE IMPACT OF NOT JUST HER DEATH, BUT THE SELECTION PROCESS IN THE SENATE TO CONFIRM WHOEVER HER SUCCESSOR WILL BE.

I HEARD A POLE THIS WEEK, AND WE SHOULD NOTE THAT AS OF THIS TAPING, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAD NOT YET NAMED THE WOMAN WHO WOULD BE CHOSEN AS HER POTENTIAL SUCCESSOR, BUT HE NARROWED IT DOWN TO FOUR REALLY Y TWO POSSIBILITIES, BOTH OF WHOM ARE EXTREME RIGHT WING CONSERVATIVE JUDGES.

HOW MUCH IS PICKING A WOMAN FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP GOING TO DO FOR HIM WITH THE WOMEN HE NEEDS IN HIS CORNER RIGHT NOW?

SO NOT JUST HIS CORE SUPPORTERS WHO ARE, YOU KNOW, EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS, EXTREMELY CONSERVATIVE IN THEIR VALUES AND WANT SUPREME COURT JUSTICES WHO WILL OVERTURN, VOTE TO OVERTURN ROE V WADE, BUT ALSO -- BUT, RATHER, THE UNDECIDED WOMEN WHO COULD GO EITHER WAY?

DO THEY CARE WHO IS SELECTED?

>> Celinda Lake: THAT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

FIRST OF ALL, CLEARLY THERE IS A BASE STRATEGY HERE INTO THE COURT ISSUE WAS USED AS A BASE STRATEGY IN 2016.

KELLYANNE CONWAY WAS REALLY THE AUTHOR OF THIS, OR THE AUTHOR ESS OF THIS STRATEGY AND NEW THAT CONSERVATIVE JUDGES WERE A REAL MAINSTAY OF THOSE EVANGELICAL WOMEN WHO ALWAYS HAD SOME DISCOMFORT WITH DONALD TRUMP.

SO IT'S AN IMPORTANT PART OF ENERGIZING AND TURNING OUT HIS BASE AND SOLIDIFYING THAT BASE.

THAT SAID, AMONG THE SWING WOMEN, THEY TRADITIONALLY HAVE NOT VOTED THE COURT VERY MUCH.

I THINK THEY WILL BE INITIALLY PLEASED AT THE WOMAN AND THAT A WOMAN IS BEING PICKED, THE MORE THEY FIND OUT ABOUT IT, THE LESS PLEASE THEY MAY BE.ND IN FACT, THOSE SWING WOMEN ARE VERY PRO-CHOICE, FOR EXAMPLE, VERY STRONGLY IN FAVOR OF PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS BEING OFFERED AND MOVING ON FROM THE ACA, NOT DOING AWAY WITH IT AND STARTING ALL OVER AGAIN.

SO I THINK IT DEPENDS A LITTLE BIT ON HOW MUCH IS REVEALED ABOUT THIS PERSON.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT PEOPLE DON'T KNOW VERY MUCH ABOUT THE SUPREME COURT HEY CANNOT NAME THE JUDGES.

THEY DON'T KNOW HOW MANY THERE ARE.

THEY DON'T REALIZE THEIR LIFETIME APPOINTMENTS.

AND SO, THERE IS A LOT OF EDUCATING TO DO.

>> Bonnie: BUT THEN EXPLAINED TO ME, WHY DO EVANGELICALS, A, KNOW, AND, B, CARE SO MUCH?

I DON'T KNOW, I HAVE NOT SEEN POLLS SHOWING WHAT PERCENTAGE OF EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS WHO ARE CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN VOTERS, ARE WELL-EDUCATED VERSUS, AS TRUMP WOULD PUT IT, LESS EDUCATED.

BUT THEY REALLY CARE A LOT ABOUT THIS ISSUE, AND ITS OWN CHARACTERISTIC OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T CARE THAT MUCH ABOUT POLITICS.

>> Celinda Lake: YEAH.

IT'S REALLY TRUE.

AND I THINK THE THING IS, FOR A WHILE, THE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS HAVE KNOWN THAT THEIR POINTS OF VIEW ARE MINORITY POINTS OF VIEW.

SO THEY'RE NOT GOING TO WIN THESE ISSUES IN THE CONGRESS UNDER NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES.

GERRYMANDERING THE INFLUENCE THAT A LITTLE BIT, BUT IN GENERAL, THEY DON'T HAVE THE VOTES TO WIN IT.

THEY KNOW THE COURT IS THE LAST REFUGE, AND THE CHURCH FILLS IN FOR THE EDUCATION THAT SOCIAL STUDIES DOES NOT GET TO ANY OF US.

IT'S TOO BAD THAT THEIR BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT IS IN THE SPRING WHEN EVERYONE ELSE'S FOCUS ON SUMMER VACATION, BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T PICK UP VERY MUCH ABOUT THE THIRD BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT IN SCHOOL, BUT THE CHURCHES MAKE UP FOR THAT.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR GREAT INSIGHTS AND FOR YOUR WILLINGNESS TO SHARE THE INFORMATION ABOUT THE INSIDE THE MINDS OF WOMEN VOTERS IN 2020HANK YOU SO MUCH AND WE WILL SEE YOU AGAIN BEFORE THE ELECTION.

>> Celinda Lake: LOOK FORWARD TO IT.

THINGS FOR HAVING FOR ND THANK YOU FOR YOUR GREAT ANALYSIS.

>> Bonnie: THANKS, CELINDA.

JOINING ME NOW TO DISCUSS THE IMPACT OF THE WOMEN'S VOTE AND RUTH BADER GINSBURG'S DEATH RDC DELEGATE ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, LONGTIME "TO THE CONTRARY" ANALYST, AND TIANA LOWE, ALSO REGULAR "TO THE CONTRARY" PANELIST AND A COMMENTATOR FOR THE WASHINGTON EXAMINER.

WELCOME TO YOU BOTH.

TIANA, STARTING WITH YOU, PRESIDENT TRUMP, AS OF THIS TAPING, HAD NOT NAMED WHICH WOMAN HE WAS GOING TO SELECT FOR THE SUPREME COURT, BUT HE HAD IT ROUNDED DOWN TO PROBABLY TWO WHO WERE EQUALLY CONSERVATIVE, BOTH ANTIABORTION RIGHTS AND BOTH PRETTY EXTREME RIGHT, AS HE PROMISED HE WOULD DO.

DO YOU THINK THIS WILL DO MUCH TO ENERGIZE WOMEN WHO ARE UNDECIDED AT THIS LENGTH POINT IN THE ELECTION SEASON?

>> Tiana: SO I THINK IT WILL ENERGIZE WOMEN, BUT ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLEHIS IS A VERY UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY FOR REPUBLICANS TO REALLY ENACT AN ANTI-ADMINISTRATIVE JUDICIARY.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT MORE THAN ANY SOCIALLY CONSERVATIVE ISSUE, THE SUPREME COURT ACTUALLY HAS A SAY OVER.

YOU KNOW, IF ROE V WADE WERE OVERTURNED, WHICH EVEN IF HE PASSED A, SAY, JUST AS, AMY CONEY BARRETT, THEY PROBABLY WOULDN'T ACTUALLY VOTE OVERTURN ROE V WADE OR CASEY.

THEY COULD DO MORE SO IS SLOWLY DISMANTLING THE ADMINISTRATIVE STATE, CHIPPING AWAY at ANTI-RIGHT WORK TO LAWS , THE REALLY THE BIGGER FACTORS.

BUT THAT'S NOT THE A1 HEADLINE NEWS.

EVERYONE IS FOCUSED ON THE ABORTION ISSUE, AND IT MAKES SENSE, BECAUSE RUTH BADER GINSBURG WAS, I MEAN, I CAN SAY THIS VERY SAFELY AS A CONSERVATIVE, CHAMPION OF WOMEN'S RIGHTS, A CHAMPION OF WORKERS' RIGHTS.

AND SO, IT IS A HUGE EMOTIONAL LOSS I THINK TO A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY.

I THINK EVERYONE IS IN A LITTLE'S STATE OF MOURNING FOR HER LOSS.

BUT THIS, THE UNTOLD STORY OF WHAT THIS FILLING OF THIS SEAT COULD BE, COULD BE FINALLY PUTTING THE NAIL ON THE COFFIN OF THINGS LIKE THE CONSUMER FINANCE PROTECTION BUREAU, ALREADY SEEN THE SUPREME COURT HAS ALREADY A LOT OF PROGRESS IN TERMS OF MAKING PROPERLY UNDER THE WHITE HOUSE.

SO THAT'S THE STORY THAT I WOULD BE FOLLOWING.

>> Bonnie: ELEANOR, YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: FIRST OF ALL, UNDECIDED WOMEN VOTERS THIS TIME ARE LIKELY TO BE DECIDED, AND I SAY THAT ON THE BASIS OF OUR TAKING BACK THE HOUSE.

THIS VERY TERM, HOW DID WE DO IT?

WE DID IT BECAUSE OF THE WOMEN'S VOTE, AND WE HAVE TO HAVE HAD MANY REPUBLICAN WOMEN IN ORDER TO HAVE THAT KIND OF IMPACT.

WE PICKED UP MANY, MANY SEATS FROM REPUBLICAN DISTRICTS.

NOW, IF YOU WANT A FULL WITH ABORTION RIGHTS AT THIS TIME, IT SEEMS TO ME YOU REALLY ENERGIZE THE VERY SAME WOMEN'S VOTE THAT WANT US THE HOUSE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

MOREOVER, YOU CANNOT DO MUCH WITH ROE V WADE OR THE ABORTION DECISION IN ONE DECISION AT ALL.

THEY HAVE BEEN CHIPPING AWAY AT IT.

AND REMEMBER THAT GINSBERG WAS PART OF THE MINORITY.

SO WE HAVE HAD A FIVE -- 5-4 MAJORITY CONSERVATIVE FOR SOME TIME, AND YET, THAT FIVE 5-4 CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY HAS NOT YET OVERTURNED ROE V WADE.

CHIPPED AT IT?

YES.

BUT THIS IS A 50-YEAR PRECEDENT AND I DO NOT EXPECT THAT THE NEXT JUSTICE IT WILL SIMPLY WILLY-NILLY VOTE TO OVERTURN IT, WHEREVER SHE MAY STAND WHEN SHE'S NOT ON THE COURT.

>> Bonnie: WELL, TIANA, DO YOU THINK THAT RELYING ON THE FACT THAT EVEN HEAVY DUTY CONSERVATIVES, FOR LACK OF A BETTER TERM BUT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO ARE STAUNCHLY CONSERVATIVE WOMEN, JUDGES WHO ARE STAUNCHLY CONSERVATIVE, ARE NOT GOING TO OVERTURN ROE V WADE?

IS THAT PART OF REPUBLICANS' STRATEGY NOW?

BECAUSE THEY CAN JUST KEEP DRIVING TRUCKS THROUGH THE HOLES THAT THEY PUNCH IN IT BUT LEAVE IT AS THE LAW OF THE LAND?

>> Tiana: SO I WOULDN'T CALL IT A PART OF A STRATEGY, SO MUCH THAT IT IS, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE THIS TENDENCY TO ATTRIBUTE A REPUBLICAN APPOINTEE TO SOMEONE WITH TELEOLOGICAL CONSERVATIVE GOALS.

AND I THINK THE RULINGS, ESPECIALLY FROM JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH, JUST SHOWED THAT'S NOT TRUE.

COURSE IT WAS THE DECISIVE WRITER OF THE COURT OPINION THAT DELIVERED PROBABLY THE MOST MONUMENTAL PROTECTIONS FOR TRANS AND LGBT FOLKS IN THE WORKPLACE SINCE ABORTION FELL.

AND THE ASSUMPTION BY DEFAULT THAT EITHER THAT EITHER JUSTICE CAVANAUGH OR BORIS EDGE WOULD VOTE TO OVERTURN ROE V. WADE, I BELIEVE IS MISPLACE.

LARENCE THOMAS IS PROBABLY THE ONLY JUSTICE ON THE BENCH AS IT STANDS WHO WOULD OUTRIGHT VOTE TO OVERTURN ROE V. WADE.

JOE BIDEN IS THE APPEALS NORMALCY CANDIDATE, BUT IS THE REST OF THIS PARTY?

WHEN WE HEAR RESPONSES TO, OH, YOU CAN HATRED, YOU CAN LIKE TRUMP, HE IS NOT FORGOING THE RULES OF THE CONSTITUTION AND MOVING FORWARD WITH A NOMINATION.

IT FOLLOWS HISTORICAL PRECEDENT.

WHEN THE RESPONSE FROM DEMOCRATS AS WE ARE GOING TO RESPOND TO POTENTIAL AND VERY, VERY UNLIKELY THREAT THAT ROE V WADE WILL BE OVERTURNED WITH COURT PACKING, I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY MORE OF THOSE RETURNS, YOU KNOW, NORMALCY VOTERS WILL STILL BE CONVINCED TO SWING TO THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN AS OPPOSED TO NOT PICKING A CANDIDATE AT C LA 2016.

>> Bonnie: ELEANOR, DO YOU AGREE THAT WITH WITH TIANA STATEMENT, AND CERTAINLY THERE HAVE BEEN DEMOCRATS IN THE SENATE WHO HAVE MENTIONED, THIS IS A POSSIBILITY THAT IF BIDEN WINS AND IF DEMOCRATS WIN CONTROL OF THE SENATE, THEY WILL RESORT TO EXPANDING THE NUMBER OF JUSTICES TO 11 OR EVEN MORE, IF NECESSARY, TO OVERCOME ALL OF THE APPOINTMENTS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS HAD DURING HIS FIRST TERM?

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: WELL, THE NUMBER OF JUSTICES HAVE CHANGED OVER THE YEARS, BUT IT'S BEEN THIS WAY I GUESS FOR ALMOST 100 YEARS.

>> Bonnie: AND FDR DRIVE IN THE 1940'S TO PACK THE COURT, AS THEY CALL IT, BUT HE FAILED.

SO AND -- >> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: AND HE HAD AN OVERWHELMING MAJORITY DEMOCRAT CONGRESS, CONGRESS.

COURT PACKING IS AN ABSURD IDEA.

PARTICULARLY, WE LOOK AT THIS -- >> Bonnie: STATUTE, IT'S JUST A STATUTE.

ALL THE SENATE HAS TO DO IS VOTE TO -- AND YOU KNOW YOU HAVE THE HOUSE, GO TO OVERTURN THE STATUTE OR CHANGE THE NUMBER IN THE STATUTE FROM NINE TO 11.

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: IT'S STILL AN ABSURD IDEA.

>> Bonnie: WHY?

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: IS ABSURD PARTICULARLY AT THIS TIME.

WE CANNOT GET THROUGH ANY BILLS ON ANY CONSEQUENCE AFFECTING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE IN THE SENATE TODAY.

THE ONLY THING THE SENATE DOING IS CONFIRMING JUDGES.

I THINK THAT'S ALL THEY NEED TO DO.

COURT PACKING WOULD RAISE, FIRST OF ALL, FILIBUSTER ISSUES IN THE SENATE, THEY WOULD SOMEHOW HAVE TO OVERTURN, GET TWO THIRDS OF THE SENATE TO AGREE TO THAT.

IT WOULD BE SEEN, AND IF I COULD QUOTE HER, JUSTICE GINSBURG SAID SHE THOUGHT NINE WAS A GOOD NUMBER.

SO IT SEEMS TO ME YOU WOULD HAVE TO COME UP WITH A RATIONALE.

SINCE THE ONLY RATIONALE WOULD BE STARKLY AND PLAINLY POLITICAL, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IS A NONSTARTER.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

AND WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER ISSUE BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT THAT IS IMPORTANT, PARTICULARLY TO WOMEN VOTERS AND AS CELINDA LAKE SAID EARLIER IN THIS PROGRAM, IT IS THE ONE ISSUE FOR WOMEN, GENERALLY SPEAKING, DECIDING HOW THE MEN ARE GOING TO VOTE, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND, IS HEALTHCARE.

WHAT ABOUT DISMANTLING OF WHAT IS LEFT OF THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT?

TIANA, YOUR THOUGHTS?

WHAT WOULD HAPPEN WITH THE TRUMP APPOINTEE TO THE SUPREME COURT AS FAR AS THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT IS CONCERNED?

>> Tiana: IT'S WORTH POINTING OUT THAT SINCE 2010, REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN PROMISING TO REPEAL AND REPLACE OBAMACARE, AND IT IS 2020.

DONALD TRUMP HAD FULL REPUBLICAN CONTROL OF THE SENATE AND OF THE HOUSE FOR TWO YEARS, AND NOTHING HAPPENED.

THEY COULD NOT EVEN PASS A SKINNY REPEAL, AT BEST.

AT BEST, YOU'VE GOT YOUR LINE ITEM REPEAL OF THE INDIVIDUAL MANDATE.

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: THEY'VE BEEN UNABLE, EVEN WHEN THEY CONTROL BOTH HOUSES, TO COME UP WITH ANY PLAN FOR ALL THESE YEARS TO REPLACE OBAMACARE.

INSTEAD, THEY HAVE BEEN CONTENT TO, YES, CHIP AWAY VERY SUBSTANTIALLY, MAKE IT MORE DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO GET HEALTHCARE.

THIS IS A MAJOR ELECTION ISSUE FOR DEMOCRATS, ESPECIALLY IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PANDEMIC, BUT HEALTHCARE HAS GONE FOR MILLIONS OF AMERICANS AND REPUBLICANS HAVE YET, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WORST PANDEMIC IN 100 YEARS, TO SUGGEST, FINALLY, HERE IS SOMETHING WE ARE GOING TO DO.

SO I REGARD HEALTHCARE IS VERY MAJOR FOR DEMOCRATS, AS THIS PANDEMIC IS NUMBER ONE ISSUE IN THE COUNTRY TODAY.

>> Bonnie: WELL, THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR THIS.

WE WILL OBVIOUSLY KEEP WATCHING, KEEP TALKING TO YOU BETWEEN NOW AND ELECTION DAY.

OBVIOUSLY, THE ELECTION HAS ALREADY STARTED IN MANY STATES IN THE COUNTRY, INCLUDING MY OWN, VIRGINIA, WHERE EARLY VOTING STARTED LAST WEEK AND WAS OVERWHELMING, SO OVERWHELMINGLY POPULAR THAT THERE WERE NEWS CAMERAS BUZZING AROUND OVERHEAD, WATCHING THE LONG, LONG LINES AND THE FACT THAT THEY WERE NOT DISAPPEARING.

AND A LOT OF PEOPLE DID NOT GET TO VOTE THE FIRST DAY THAT THEY TRIED.

BUT, ANYWAY, WE WILL WATCH IT ALL FOR YOU.

PLEASE JOIN US HERE ON "TO THE CONTRARY" AND VISIT OUR WEBSITE, www.PBS.org/TOTHECONTRARY.

PLEASE JOIN US ON TWITTER, INSTAGRAM, AND FACEBOOK.

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