>>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP, THIS IS ABOUT A CLASSIC MOVE OUT OF A AUTHORITARIAN PLAYBOOK AND I DON'T USE THOSE WORDS LIGHTLY.

>> TRUMPS CRACKDOWN FROM MIGRANTS AND TARIFFS IN UNIVERSITIES AND DIVERSITY, HOW MASSACHUSETTS IS FEELING THE IMPACT AND FIGHTING BACK.

THE STATES GOVERNMENT JOINS ME.

>> EVEN THINKING ABOUT THE POLICY AT A MUCH HIGHER CHANCE TO PROCEED.

>> TEHRAN AND WASHINGTON WANT A DEAL, CAN THEY GET IT ACROSS THE WASHINGTON LINE?

AND A FORMER IRAN NUCLEAR NEGOTIATOR.

>>> IT IS NOW UP TO US HISTORIANS TO MAKE SURE THAT THE FULL ENORMITY OF WHAT HAPPENED WILL ALWAYS BE REMEMBERED.

>> THE HOLOCAUST, 80 YEARS ON, THIS HISTORIANS A DEEPLY PERSONAL JOURNEY TO ASHWOOD'S, HE JOINS US TO TALK ABOUT CREATING HIS PBS DOCUMENTARY.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE WHY BYCANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST, MARK J. BLECHNER, THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU, THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON, THE AGE OF AMERICAN BEING SEEN AS A FREE AND FAIR DEMOCRACY IS ON HOLD, THAT IS THE MESSAGE FROM AMERICAN LIBERALS, SOME TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVES AND EVEN AMERICANS ONCE OVERSEAS ALLIES, WHEN DONALD TRUMP RE- ENTERED THE WHITE HOUSE LESS THAN THREE MONTHS AGO, HE BEGAN WITH A FLURRY OF WIDE-RANGING EXECUTIVE ORDERS, NOW THE IMPACT OF THOSE POLICIES ARE HITTING HOME, HARD.

TAKE JUST ONE STATE FOR EXAMPLE, MASSACHUSETTS, PEOPLE WITH NO CRIMINAL RECORDS HAVE BEEN DEPORTED TO FEDERAL PRISONS WITHOUT WARNING.

ICE AGENTS ARE BREAKING THE CAR WINDOWS OF MIGRANTS AND PUTTING STUDENTS OFF THE STREETS AND THE WORLD'S LEADING UNIVERSITIES BEING THREATENED WITH FUNDING CUTS IF THEY REFUSE TO COMPLY WITH THE PRESIDENT'S MANDATE TO CUT DIVERSITY, EQUITY AND INCLUSION.

MEANTIME, THE TARIFFS CONTINUES , IT WILL CAUSE MASSACHUSETTS ALONE $3.5 BILLION IN U.S. IMPORTS, AMERICANS MUST STAND UP FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN.

MAURA HEALEY IS THE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS AND INFLUENTIAL VOICE IN HER PARTY, HER STATE HAS BEEN TARGETED AND SHE JOINS ME NOW FROM BOSTON.

GOVERNOR, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> IT IS GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> OVERSEAS, WE ARE FEELING THAT THIS IS NOT TO THE AMERICA THAT HAS ALWAYS PROJECTED ITSELF AS A SHINING LIGHT.

>> NO, IT IS NOT, AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT EVERY DAY WE SEE THINGS THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS DOING THAT ARE JUST REALLY COUNTER TO A TRUE AMERICA FIRST AGENDA, TRUE AMERICAN VALUES AND FREEDOMS AND THE REASONS WHY SO MANY PEOPLE COME TO AMERICA AND STUDY HERE AND RESEARCH HERE AND START COMPANIES HERE, THERE IS A REASON THAT AMERICA SINCE POST-WORLD WAR II HAS LED THE WORLD IN SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERY, IN INNOVATION AND KNOWLEDGE AND WITH THAT, TREMENDOUS ECONOMIC GROWTH.

BUT WHAT DONALD TRUMP HAS DONE FROM DAY ONE, TO STATES LIKE MASSACHUSETTS AND WORLD MARKETS IS DO EVERYTHING TO DISMANTLE THAT.

>> LET ME ASK YOU BECAUSE NOT ONLY ARE THERE THE TARIFFS WHICH NO DOUBT YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH AS A STATE BUT THERE'S ALSO THE FINANCIAL CRACKDOWN, ON NOT JUST UNIVERSITIES BUT RESEARCH CENTERS, NOT JUST ACADEMIC DIVISIONS AS WE MIGHT KNOW THEM.

THEY ARE RESEARCH CENTERS THAT THE WORLD HAS COME TO RELY ON FOR ALL THE INNOVATION THAT COMES FROM HARVARD OR M.I.T.

OR ANYWHERE IN YOUR STATE.

WHAT IS THE IMPACT OF THAT?

>> LET ME HIT THE TARIFFS FIRST, REMEMBER, DONALD TRUMP RAN ON THE AGENDA TO LOWER COSTS AND EVERY DAY HE HAS DONE THINGS THAT ARE MORE INFLATIONARY, THAT ARE RAISING COSTS, AS GOVERNOR, I HAVE BEEN FOCUSED ON CUTTING TAXES, NUMBER TWO, I PASSED THE LARGEST HOUSING BILL IN HISTORY TO BUILD MORE HOUSING.

WHERE DO WE GET OUR LUMBER FROM?

CANADA.

WE GET OTHER PRODUCTS FROM MEXICO SO HE IS RAISING ENERGY COSTS, HE IS RAISING THE PRICE ON EVERYTHING, THAT HURTS OUR ECONOMY, IT HURTS THE AMERICAN ECONOMY.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES, REMEMBER THAT A PLACE LIKE MASSACHUSETTS, WE HAVE 100,000 FOREIGN STUDENTS WHO COME TO MASSACHUSETTS COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES TO STUDY, TO DO RESEARCH, TO ENGAGE IN EFFORTS TO, RIGHT NOW, DO CLINICAL TRIALS AND DEVELOP THE CURES AND TREATMENTS TO CURE CANCER AND ALZHEIMER'S DISEASE AND ALL THESE THINGS.

WE HAVE A NUMBER WHO HAVE WON NOBEL PRIZES FROM HERE AND ALSO, THESE ARE ENTREPRENEURS, THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE STARTING A.I.

COMPANIES, ROBOTIC COMPANIES, SCIENCE COMPANIES, COMPANIES THAT ARE SO IMPORTANT TO CYBER SECURITY AND DEFENSE.

SO WHAT HE HAS DONE IS, IN SOME INSTANCES, TRIED TO DISAPPEAR PEOPLE FROM OUR STREETS, LITERALLY GRABBING A GRADUATE STUDENT WITH NO CAUSE, WITH NO DUE PROCESS AND I SAY THAT AS SOMEBODY WHO IS A FORMER PROSECUTOR AND TWICE ATTORNEY GENERAL.

THAT IS HAPPENING.

AND HE IS CUTTING OFF FUNDING AND HE IS THREATENING AND IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE BECAUSE RIGHT NOW AS WE SPEAK, WE HAVE HAD PEOPLE IN MASSACHUSETTS WHOSE LABS HAVE BEEN SHUT DOWN, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN LAID OFF, PEOPLE WHO ARE IN LINE AND RECEIVING CLINICAL TRIAL TREATMENT FOR CANCER AND ALL SORTS OF OTHER DISEASES ARE COMPLETELY SHUT DOWN.

AND WE HAVE FOREIGN STUDENTS OPTING TO GO ELSEWHERE, IT IS A TERRIBLE SITUATION, AND FOR SOMEBODY, DONALD TRUMP, LET'S REMEMBER, HE TALKS ABOUT AMERICA FIRST, THIS ISN'T AMERICA FIRST.

IF YOU WANT TO RE-SURE MANUFACTURING, IF YOU WANT TO BRING TALENT HERE, THEN DON'T DRIVE TALENT AWAY BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT HE IS DOING, BY TARGETING LIFE-SCIENCES, BY TARGETING NIH FUNDING, BY TARGETING OUR COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES, YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE FORCED TO LEAVE WHO ARE FIRED FROM POSITIONS BECAUSE THE UNIVERSITIES AND RESEARCH INSTITUTES CAN'T FUND THEM AND YOU KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE?

THIS IS WHAT THE PUBLIC NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND, WHAT DONALD TRUMP IS DOING, HE IS GETTING AWAY AMERICA'S INTELLECTUAL ASSETS.

BECAUSE RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE OF WHAT HE'S DOING, CHINA, COUNTRIES FROM THE MIDDLE EAST AND ELSEWHERE ARE ON OUR CAMPUSES, IN OUR STATE AND BY THE WAY, THEY ARE NOT JUST RECRUITING HERE, THEY ARE RECRUITING AND STATES AROUND THE COUNTRY BECAUSE THIS IS IMPACTING ALL STATES.

THEY ARE RECRUITING OUR TALENT AND SCIENTISTS AND RESEARCHERS, AND WHY WOULD THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES ALLOW CHINA TO COME AND TAKE AWAY OUR TALENT?

TALENT THAT IS DEVELOPING THE CURES AND TREATMENTS, PIONEERING THE TECHNOLOGY, STARTING THE NEW COMPANIES THAT ARE GOING TO CHANGE THE WORLD.

IT MAKES ZERO SENSE, ECONOMICALLY, AND IN TERMS OF WHO WE ARE AS A NATION, AND CERTAINLY WE JUST CONTINUE EACH DAY WITH DONALD TRUMP AT THE HELM TO LOSE OUR COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE IN THE WORLD.

>> YOU SAY THAT AND I HAVE TO BRING UP WHAT A BROWN UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL ECONOMICS RECENTLY SAID, HE WAS QUOTED IN ONE OF THE NEWSPAPERS, BUT THE WORLD WHERE WE ARE IS WAKING UP EVERY DAY, REALIZING THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DOESN'T KNOW WHAT IT IS DOING.

I WONDER WHETHER YOU THINK THERE IS A REASON, BUT I ALSO WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE RULE OF LAW BECAUSE AMERICA STANDS FOR THE RULE OF LAW AND THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT, NOT JUST IN HUMAN RIGHTS AND INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS BUT IN BUSINESS PRACTICES.

SO, WHEN YOU SEE SENATOR VAN HOLLEN GOING OVER TO EL SALVADOR TO GET ONE OF HIS CONSTITUENTS OUT OF THE GANG JAIL, HE WAS EXPORTED OR DEPORTED WITH NO DUE PROCESS.

THIS ADMINISTRATION SAYS TOO BAD, IT WAS AN ADMINISTERED ERROR BUT WE ARE NOT GETTING BACK.

THIS CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS THAT WE WERE TOLD WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THE ADMINISTRATION CHALLENGED OR REFUSED THE SUPREME COURT, IT IS HERE NOW, RIGHT?

>> IT IS AND IT IS REALLY QUITE UNBELIEVABLE WHERE WE FIND OURSELVES AND JUST SO FOLKS UNDERSTAND, MY BACKGROUND, I WAS ATTORNEY GENERAL, I SERVED ALONGSIDE PAM BONDI FOR A TIME AS THE ATTORNEY GENERAL IN MASSACHUSETTS.

I'M ALSO SOMEBODY WHO HAS INVESTIGATED PROSECUTED AND PUT AWAY MEMBERS OF DRUG CARTELS INCLUDING FOLKS WHO ARE NOT HERE LAWFULLY, SO I HAVE EXTENSIVE EXPERIENCE WHEN IT COMES TO GOING AFTER AND APPREHENDING THOSE WHO ARE PUBLIC SAFETY THREAT AND THOSE WHO HAVE CAUSED HARM AND NEED TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

I ALSO KNOW THAT WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS SOMETHING WE HAVE NEVER SEEN BEFORE IN THIS COUNTRY.

THE WEAPONIZATION OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, THE LAUNCHING OF COMPLETELY FALSE INVESTIGATIONS UNDER FALSE PRETENSES, REFUSING TO COMPLY WITH THE RULE OF LAW, THE REFUSAL TO COMPLY WITH ORDERS FROM THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT.

WE HAVE NOT SEEN A PRESIDENT OF THIS COUNTRY EVER DO THIS AND WE ARE ON THE EVE OF CELEBRATING 250 YEARS OF THIS GREAT AMERICAN EXPERIMENT HERE, THIS WEEKEND IN MASSACHUSETTS.

NEVER IN THE COURSE OF HISTORY HAS A PRESIDENT REFUSED TO COMPLY WITH THE RULE OF LAW.

IT IS BAD FOR OUR PEOPLE, IT IS BAD FOR OUR DEMOCRACY, IT IS VERY BAD FOR BUSINESS.

LOOK AT THE WAY IN WHICH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS CHOOSING TO WEAPON EYES ALL OF THE REGULATORY AGENCIES, THE IRS AND THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I'M GOING TO CONTINUE TO SPEAK OUT ABOUT AND SPEAK UP AGAINST, I THINK IT IS VERY IMPORTANT IN THIS MOMENT THAT WE CONTINUE TO SEE PEOPLE PUSH BACK ON THESE EFFORTS THAT ARE ILLEGAL, UNCONSTITUTIONAL, THAT ARE WREAKING TREMENDOUS HARM ON MARKETS, ON AMERICA'S WORLD STANDING AND FOR ME, ON THE PEOPLE OF MASSACHUSETTS AND EVERYDAY AMERICANS ACROSS THIS GREAT COUNTRY.

SO AS GOVERNOR, I'M GOING TO CONTINUE TO FOCUS ON WHAT I CAN, HOW DO I LOWER COSTS, CUT TAXES, BUILDING MORE HOUSING, PUSHING TO SUPPORT MORE INNOVATION INCLUDING OUR WORKFORCE AND TO CONTINUE TO TALK TO OUR FOREIGN PARTNERS.

I HAVE MET RECENTLY WITH MANY OF OUR PARTNERS FROM CANADA, FROM MEXICO AND FROM ELSEWHERE TO SAY COME TO MASSACHUSETTS, CONTINUE TO DO BUSINESS WITH US AS A STATE, WHERE BUSINESS IS PART OF A GLOBAL ECONOMY AND WE SUPPORT THAT GLOBAL TALENT AND WE SUPPORT THE WORK THAT WE CAN DO WITH OTHER NATIONS.

BUT, WE ARE UP AGAINST AN ADMINISTRATION THAT IS DOING EVERYTHING TO ISOLATE AMERICA FROM OUR ALLIES, TO DO THINGS THAT ARE INCREDIBLY DESTRUCTIVE TO THE ECONOMY, THE LOSS OF WEALTH IS SOMETHING, I DON'T KNOW THAT PEOPLE COULD HAVE IMAGINED WE WOULD SEE THIS LOSS OF WEALTH IN SUCH A SHORT TIME.

AND I WILL TELL YOU THE OTHER THING, THE FEAR IS REAL.

I HEARD FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN GREEN CARD HOLDERS FROM COUNTRIES LIKE CANADA AND GERMANY AND OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRIES WHO ARE IN THE PROCESS, THE FINAL STEP IN THEIR NATURALIZATION INTERVIEW, THEY DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY SHOULD SHOW UP FOR FEAR OF BEING ARRESTED AND HAULED OFF SOMEWHERE IN EL SALVADOR.

THAT IS THE REALITY AND THAT IS WHY IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE STAND UP, IT IS VERY IMPORTANT WHAT HARVARD UNIVERSITY DID, AND SAID ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

ON THAT NOTE, I JUST WANT TO BE CLEAR AS WELL, THERE'S NO PLACE FOR ANTI-SEMITISM, NO PLACE AT ALL, AS GOVERNOR, I SET UP AN ANTI-SEMITISM TASK FORCE TO STUDY THIS AND IDENTIFY MORE THINGS WE CAN DO.

THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT JEWISH STUDENTS ON CAMPUSES HAVE BEEN TREATED POORLY IN THIS COUNTRY AND COLLEGES NEED TO CHANGE AND HARVARD HAS ALREADY TAKEN STEPS TO DO THAT.

I HAVE ALSO SAID THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS IS ABOUT, THIS IS ABOUT A CLASSIC MOVE OUT OF AN AUTHORITARIAN PLAYBOOK AND I DON'T USE THOSE WORDS LIGHTLY BUT WHEN YOU HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO IS LOOKING TO SILENCE ALL CRITICS, ALL OPPOSITION, LAW FIRMS, COMPANIES, COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES, EVERYDAY AMERICANS , THAT'S THE REALITY OF WHAT IS HAPPENING.

WHEN YOU HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO EACH DAY IS ISSUING AN ORDER, I'M GOING TO TAKE AWAY TAX STATUS FOR COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES, OR ANY ORGANIZATION THAT IS INVOLVED IN CLIMATE WORK OR DEMOCRACY WORK OR ANY ORGANIZATION THAT IS ABOUT PROMOTING EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR, WOMEN IN THIS COUNTRY, THAT IS WHAT IS GOING ON, TO SAY NOTHING OF THE CORRUPTION AND WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH DOGE AND THE ACCESS TO INFORMATION THAT ELON MUSK HAS THAT CAN MANIPULATE MARKET.

IT IS IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE SPEAK UP ABOUT IT AND DEMAND ACCOUNTABILITY WHICH AT THIS POINT IS GOING TO COME FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND FRANKLY REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS WHO SHOULD NOT HAVE STOOD BY AND ALLOWED ALL OF THEIR POWER AND AUTHORITY TO BE USURPED BY DONALD TRUMP.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, THE DEMOCRATS APPEAR TO STILL BE IN THE WILDERNESS, SHELLSHOCKED FROM WHAT HAPPENED, WHAT SHOULD WE STAND FOR, WHAT SHOULD WE DO?

THERE IS YOUR VOICE, FIGHTING FOR YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, AND THERE ARE OTHERS WHO HAVE A DIFFERENT VIEW OF HOW TO SO- CALLED THREAD THE NEEDLE, THE GOVERNOR OF MICHIGAN WENT TO THE WHITE HOUSE AND SUDDENLY FOUND HERSELF A PROP IN THE PR EXERCISE, SHE HEADED OUT TO HIDE HER FACE.

AND THAT INCREDIBLE SPEECH IN CONGRESS, BUT DO YOU SEE A COHERENT, WHAT WE ARE SEEING AS HARVARD AS THE LEADING INSTITUTION IN THE WORLD ACTUALLY LED THE WAY AND SAID WE CANNOT GIVE UP OUR PREROGATIVES.

DO YOU SEE ANY WAY OF BANDING TOGETHER, CAN THE DEMOCRATS FIGHT BACK?

YOU SAID REPUBLICANS BUT THEY ARE CLEARLY NOT GOING TO DO IT, WHO ELSE CAN DO IT?

>> REPUBLICANS HAVE TO BE MADE TO DO IT, CONSTITUENTS INCLUDING TRUMP SUPPORTERS ARE PUSHING BACK AND SAYING THIS ISN'T WHAT I VOTED FOR, I DIDN'T VOTE FOR CHAOS, I DIDN'T VOTE TO CONTINUE TO SEE HIGHER PRICES AT THE GROCERY STORE, AT THE GAS PUMP, THAT NEEDS TO CONTINUE.

WHAT ALSO NEEDS TO HAPPEN IS PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO ARE IN POSITIONS OF LEADERSHIP NEED TO DO THEIR JOBS.

ONE OF THE REASONS I BELIEVE THAT DONALD TRUMP WON IS BECAUSE OF A PERCEPTION THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WAS NOT DELIVERING FOR EVERYDAY AMERICANS.

I CAN TELL YOU AS GOVERNOR, I'M WORKING TO DO THAT EVERYDAY, THAT IS WHY I CUT TAXES, WE'VE HAD MULTIPLE REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS TO CUT TAXES, TO LOWER COSTS.

MY FOCUS ON BUILDING MORE HOUSING, INVESTING IN WORKFORCE AND VOCATIONAL TRAINING, INVESTING IN INNOVATION AND SECTORS THAT ARE GOING TO GROW THE ECONOMY AND OPPORTUNITY.

INVESTING IN ADVANCED MANUFACTURING HERE IN OUR STATE.

THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO FOCUS ON AND I TALK ABOUT EVERY DAY.

THE REALITY I THINK FOR MOST AMERICANS, YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO HAVE A HOME, YOU WANT THAT HOME TO BE SAFE, YOU WANT HEALTHCARE WHEN YOU NEED IT, YOU WANT YOUR KIDS TO HAVE A SHOT AT GOOD EDUCATION OR CAREER OPPORTUNITIES AND EVERY FAMILY WANTS UPWARD ECONOMIC MOBILITY.

THESE ARE BASICS.

AND WE NEED TO ALIGN AROUND THAT COMMON PURPOSE AND GET THAT DONE AND DELIVER.

WE ALSO NEED TO SPEAK OUT WHEN THINGS ARE GOING WRONG, WHEN THINGS ARE BEING DONE THAT ARE UN-AMERICAN, THAT ARE UNCONSTITUTIONAL BECAUSE WE HAVE A SYSTEM BOTH FOR THE MARKETS AND WHO WE ARE AS A DEMOCRACY THAT IS PREDICATED ON THE RULE OF LAW AND WE HAVE GOT A PRESIDENT RIGHT NOW WHO DOESN'T ADHERE TO THAT AND HE IS SURROUNDED BY FOLKS UNFORTUNATELY THAT DON'T HAVE THE WHEREWITHAL TO SPEAK BACK.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT BECAUSE YOU JUST MENTIONED PAM BONDI AND I WAS INTERESTED BECAUSE I HADN'T REALIZED THAT YOU HAD WORKED TOGETHER WITH HER IN THE PAST.

SO, PAM BONDI IS SITTING IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND PRESIDENT TRUMP AND TALKING ABOUT THIS GUY THAT HAS BEEN DEPORTED TO EL SALVADOR.

AND STEPHEN MILLER STANDS UP AS IF ON SCRIPT AND SAYS NO, HE IS VIEWED AS A CRIMINAL, WHERE HIS LAWYERS AND EVERYBODY ELSE SAYS THERE'S NO EVIDENCE, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ITSELF SAID IT WAS AN ADMINISTRATIVE ERROR.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT REPUBLICANS, WHY IS IT THAT PAM BONDI WOULD SIT THERE AND LET THIS HAPPEN.

DO YOU THINK SHE BELIEVES THIS?

>> I CANNOT EXPLAIN IT BECAUSE AS A PROSECUTOR AND ATTORNEY GENERAL, I SWORE AN OATH TO THE CONSTITUTION.

THAT CASE IS SO EMBLEMATIC OF WHAT IS GOING ON.

THERE'S NO EVIDENCE, IT HAS BEEN DAYS, WEEKS MAYBE, NO EVIDENCE OF WRONGDOING, IN FACT, MORE THAN THAT, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS ADMITTED THERE'S NO EVIDENCE OF WRONGDOING, BRING THIS MAN HOME.

FOCUS ON REAL CRIME, FOCUS ON REAL CORRUPTION, DO THE WORK OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, THAT IS WHAT I WOULD SAY.

SO I CAN'T REALLY BEGIN TO GET MY HEAD AROUND WHAT IS GOING ON, WHAT I SEE, THE RESPONSES, IT'S CERTAINLY NOT ANYTHING THAT IS OPERATING WITHIN A SYSTEM THAT IS A SYSTEM OF LAWS AND THE RULE OF LAW IN THIS COUNTRY AND HAS BEEN IMPORTANT TO WHO AMERICA IS FOR THESE PAST 250 YEARS.

>> MY -- NOT TO MENTION THE STUDENTS THAT HAVE ALSO BEEN INCARCERATED WITHOUT DUE PROCESS OR CHARGES.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

IT APPEARS BOTH TEHRAN AND TRUMP WANT TO STRIKE A NUCLEAR DEAL AND TALKS ARE EXPECTED TO CONTINUE THIS WEEKEND BUT JUST BECAUSE THEY WANT IT DOESN'T MEAN IT'LL BE EASY OR EVEN THOUGH IT'LL HAPPEN, TRUMPS SPECIAL ENVOY TO THE MIDDLE EAST FLIP-FLOPS ON HIS DEMANDS, WHILE HE TWEETED ON WEDNESDAY, MOVING THE GOAL POST COULD SIMPLY RISK ANY OVERTURES FALLING APART.

SO THE PATH IS UNCLEAR, WHAT WE DO KNOW IS TRUMP WANTS TO ENSURE IRAN NEVER HAS A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

DON'T FORGET, HE PULLED OUT OF THE 2015 NUCLEAR DEAL AND IRAN HAS BEEN ACCELERATING ITS ENRICHMENT.

TEHRAN WANTS TO AVOID A U.S. OR ISRAELI WAR AND GET DRACONIAN SANCTIONS LIFTED.

OUR NEXT GUEST IS A FORMER MEMBER OF THE IRAN NUCLEAR NEGOTIATING TEAM, NOW A BUSINESSMAN WITH GREAT CONNECTIONS AHEAD OF THE NEXT ROUND OF TALKS, HE JOINED ME IN THE STUDIO WITH HIS VIEW OF WHAT IS GOING ON BEHIND THE SCENES.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR THE INVITE.

>> WE REALLY DO WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON, YOU WERE INVOLVED IN NUCLEAR NEGOTIATIONS WHEN THEY FIRST STARTED, YOU HAVE BEEN INVOLVED ALL THROUGHOUT.

DO YOU THINK THERE IS ACTUALLY A GOOD CHANCE OF A DEAL BEING STRUCK THIS TIME?

>> SHORT ANSWER, YES, LONGER ANSWER, I HAVE TO PUT SOME CONTEXT INTO IT.

>> THE CONTEXT AT THE MOMENT IS THAT TRUMP SAID IN FRONT OF THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER THAT THERE WILL BE TALKS, HE SENT A LETTER TO YOUR SUPREME LEADER, HE ONLY WANTS TO MAKE SURE THAT IRAN DOES NOT GET A NUCLEAR WEAPON, CANNOT WEAPON ICE -- WEAPONIZE ANY URANIUM.

THE WHOLE THING SEEMS TO HAVE TAKEN A U-TURN, HIS LATEST IS THAT THEY HAVE TO DISMANTLE IT ALL, THIS IS WHAT YOUR FOREIGN MINISTER SAID ABOUT THAT.

>> DIFFERENT AND CONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS FROM U.S. OFFICIALS ARE UNHELPFUL, REAL POSITIONS BECOME CLEAR AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE, IF THE U.S.

BRINGS CONSTRUCTIVE POSITIONS, WE HOPE TALKS ON A POTENTIAL AGREEMENT FRAMEWORK CAN BEGIN.

>> YOU KNOW, IT IS DEJA VU, THEY ARE SEEING THIS FOR THE LAST TWO DECADES, EVERY TIME THERE IS AN ATTEMPT TO NEGOTIATE WITH THE REST, YOU MAY REMEMBER THIS, IT STARTED WHEN YOU WERE COVERING THIS, INCLUDING IN GENEVA, THERE WAS A CLIMAX, EVERYTHING GOES FORWARD BUT AT SOME POINT, SOMEBODY ON THE WESTERN SIDE, IT IS USUALLY THE AMERICANS, SOMEBODY IN THE U.S. ADMINISTRATION SAYS THEY HAVE TO JUST DISMANTLE THE WHOLE THING, EVEN THOUGH IT IS KNOWN THAT THIS IS JUST NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

>> FOR A LONG TIME, THERE WAS A DEAL, ABOUT TWO YEARS TO NEGOTIATE BUT IT SEEMS TO BE WORKING, IRAN WAS DEEMED BY THE IAEA TO BE MAINTAINING ITS BARGAINING, THEN TRUMP PULLED THE U.S. OUT, ESSENTIALLY SAYING HE CAN GET A BETTER DEAL, AND SINCE THEN, IRAN HAS ZOOMED TO EXTRA ENRICHMENT, ABOUT 60% WHICH IS VERY CLOSE TO HOW YOU WISH TO MAKE A BOND, YOU CAN JUST TURN THE KEY.

WHY DO YOU THINK TRUMP AND AROUND TODAY ARE IN A POSITION TO STRIKE A DEAL?

>> ON THE ONE HAND, AT LEAST THE WAY THE U.S. IS PRESENTING IT IS THAT THEY CONSIDER THIS TO BE AN IMMINENT THREAT, THEN PERHAPS IT FOLLOWS THEN, CONVERSATIONS HAVE TO BE MADE, AND ALSO, DIPLOMATIC DECISIONS, I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS JUSTIFIED BUT THIS IS THE WAY IT HAS TO HAPPEN.

>> SO ISRAEL IS TALKING TOUGH, BUT THEY ALSO WANT TO, AT LEAST THE U.S.

WANTS TO DO A DEAL.

>> PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATIONS INCLUDING THE OBAMA PERIOD, THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT AN OPTION, THERE IS ALWAYS A MILITARY OPTION AVAILABLE ON THE TABLE, THIS IS A REAL THREAT, IT IS NOT JUST AN OPTION, THIS PREPARATION THAT HAS BEEN MADE.

>> JUST TO BE CLEAR, IRAN IS FEELING THE HEAT, THIS IS AN ACTIVE MILITARY THREAT THAT COULD BE IMPLEMENTED WHETHER OR NOT IT IS BY THE UNITED STATES OR WHETHER THEY EMPOWER, ALLOW WHAT ISRAEL IS DOING.

>> WELL, THERE'S PROBABLY ANOTHER DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NOW AND 2012 TO 15, WHEN IT WAS FORMING AND PUT INTO IMPLICATION, IT IS EVIDENT THAT IT HAS MORE OF A ROLE AND OF COURSE THAT MAKES IT MORE DIFFICULT BECAUSE -- PART OF THE REASON THESE DYNAMICS ARE HAPPENING IN WASHINGTON, HE PROMISES SOMETHING AND IT COMES BACK, AND HE ULTIMATELY SAYS IT FOR THE MEDIA, IT IS A SITUATION WHERE EVERYBODY GETS TOGETHER AND THEY HAVE TO STEP BACK AGAIN.

>> WE UNDERSTAND THERE IS A DIVIDED VIEW WITHIN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, SOME BELIEVE THERE SHOULD BE DIPLOMACY, OTHERS BELIEVE THERE NEEDS TO BE A MUCH HARDER LINE, EVEN TAKE OUT IRAN'S NUCLEAR FACILITIES, INCLUDING PEOPLE LIKE MARCO RUBIO AND THE SECRETARY OF STATE.

WHAT IS IT THAT BROUGHT THE IRANIAN HARMONY TO AGREE TO THESE TALKS, HAVING BEEN VERY CLEAR IN THE BEGINNING, WE CAN'T TRUST THE AMERICANS BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY DID LAST TIME, ET CETERA?

>> LET'S START WITH THAT, THEY CONSIDERED WHAT HAPPENED IN MOSCOW, THE NEXT MEETING WAS COMING UP AND THEY NEED TO PREPARE FOR THAT, WE WOULD ALSO BE ANALYZING TO RON.

LET'S SAY PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTS TO KNOW HOW FAR THE MILITARY OPTION WILL GO AND AS SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH OR THE OPERATIONAL CHIEF WILL TAKE BETTER OPTIONS, I DON'T THINK IT IS OFFICIAL TO JUST TARGET THE KNOWN TARGETS, AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHAT IS THE CALL FOR MAKING THE NUCLEAR BOMB?

IT IS 60% ENRICHED URANIUM.

AND IF YOU ASK MR. STEINBERG, CAN YOU SAY WITH SUFFICIENT CONFIDENCE THAT YOU CAN TARGET THAT, REGARDLESS OF WHAT, THE RADIATION AND OTHER PROBLEMS AND CAN CAUSE, YOU CAN EITHER IT BACK OR DESTROY IT, SO WHATEVER IRAN IS ABLE TO CREATE SO FAR, THE GOAL IS TO HAVE THE MATERIAL THAT WE CONSIDER TO BE CONVERTED, CAN WE TAKE IT OUT?

AND I DON'T THINK ANY GENERAL CAN SAY WITH SUFFICIENT CONFIDENCE, YES.

AND THEREFORE, THE QUESTION IS, CAN THE DECISION BE MADE TO ACTUALLY IMPLEMENT A MILITARY ACTION?

THAT IS ABOUT IT.

THEREFORE, I THINK THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS RIGHTLY THINKING ABOUT A MUCH HIGHER CHANCE TO PROCEED.

TO ME, IT SEEMS LIKE PROBABLY TOO SOFT TO QUICKLY.

>> SO NOW YOU ARE THINKING, THEY ARE THINKING THEY NEED TO BE TOUGH AS THE NEGOTIATIONS START?

>> IT IS VERY LIKELY, AT THE NEXT MEETING, THEY WILL COME BACK TO A PLATFORM THAT CAN BE AT LEAST CONSIDERED BY THE IRANIAN SIDE.

>> OKAY, WE TALKED ABOUT THE MILITARY THREAT BUT IRAN HAS SUFFERED IN TERMS OF SETBACKS OVER THE LAST YEAR, WE HAVE SEEN THE MISSILES HAVE BEEN A NO MATCH, IN THE TWO ENCOUNTERS THEY HAD.

ISRAEL HAS TAKEN OUT ALL OF IRAN'S PROXIES, HEZBOLLAH, SYRIA IS GONE, ET CETERA.

DOES IRAN FEEL THAT UNLESS IT DOES THESE DEALS WITH THE THREATS, THAT THE REGIME MIGHT FALL?

WHAT PRESSURE IS IRAN FEELING FROM INSIDE ?

>> I THINK THEY CAN CONTEMPLATE HOW THE LEADERS OF IRAN WILL THINK ABOUT THIS, BUT WHAT I CAN SEE IS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS VERY CLEARLY SAID, WE HAVE ONE ISSUE, WE CANNOT HAVE A NUCLEAR BOMB AND I THINK ATTACHED TO THAT, WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO MONITOR IT.

SO WE ARE TALKING ABOUT NOT HAVING NUCLEAR MATERIAL THAT IS JUST READY TO BE CONVERTED TO A BOMB LEVEL.

PLUS, SOME SORT OF MONITORING WHICH CONTROLS THE SITUATION.

ON THE OTHER SIDE, HE KNOWS HE HAS TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE LIFTING OF SANCTIONS.

I THINK THE IRANIANS PROBABLY LOOK AT THE THREAT, IF I WERE THEM, I WOULD ALSO LOOK AT THE OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE THE DIFFERENCE NOW BETWEEN WHEN THE NEGOTIATIONS TOOK PLACE WITH JOHN KERRY AND OBAMA, OBAMA WAS REALLY TIGHTFISTED, HE DIDN'T HAVE THE CONCERN OF THE CONGRESS AND HE HAD TO MANAGE TO GET SOMETHING, WITH THE AUTHORITY UNDER HIS LEVEL TO MAKE IT A PROPER DEAL.

ON THE OTHER HAND, HE HAS THE PRIORITY TO MANAGE THE MEDIA, IF HE COMES TO A DEAL, HE WILL SELL IT TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND ALSO ABLE TO CATER TO CONGRESS.

THAT CREATES A LOT OF OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE IT CAN GO A LOT FURTHER ON THE LIFTING OF SANCTIONS BUT WHAT IS IMPORTANT AT THIS STAGE IS THE WAY TRUMP IS LOOKING AT THIS.

TALKING ABOUT GROUND ZERO AT THIS STAGE, IRAN IS ANOTHER COUNTRY, ANOTHER OPPORTUNITY, IN TERMS OF THE BALANCE SHEET.

IT CAN VERY QUICKLY BECOME A $1 TRILLION ESTATE AND I THINK TRUMP LIKES TO AIM HIGH AND THAT'S THE KIND OF THING.

BUT LOOKING BEYOND THAT, LIKE WHAT YOU SAID, ON A GRANDER SCALE, WHAT HE SEES IS CHINA THAT IS GROWING AT THE MAIN AIM TO BE ABLE TO BE SOME SORT OF GEOPOLITICAL REBALANCING GLOBALLY BUT ALSO REACHING AND HAVING IRAN CLOSER AND ABLE TO WORK WITH THE UNITED STATES , AND I THINK THAT IS WHAT MATTERS.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT THE STOCKPILE OF URANIUM, RUSSIA TOOK THE STOCKPILE OF ENRICHED URANIUM AS A PART OF THE DEAL, NO IRAN IS SAYING THEY DON'T WANT TO GET RID OF THOSE STOCKPILES BECAUSE WELL, WE SAW US DO A DEAL, THEN THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT PULLED OUT AND LEFT US STANDING, WHY SHOULD WE GIVE UP THIS STUFF IN CASE THEY PUT OUT AGAIN?

THAT IS GOING TO BE A DEALBREAKER.

AND ALSO RIGHT NOW, WHOEVER IS IN MOSCOW TALKING TO PUTIN.

>> I THINK IT IS JUST AN EXCHANGE WITH MOSCOW, I DON'T THINK ANYTHING WOULD BE REALLY COMING FROM THE VIEW OF MOSCOW AS IMPORTANT FOR THE CURRENT SYSTEM IN IRAN.

BUT, IT IS NOT A MATTER OF EITHER YOU GIVE UP THE WHOLE STOCKPILE OR THERE WILL BE ZERO DISMANTLEMENT, AND EVENTUALLY THE DEAL WOULD BE ON THAT BASIS, THAT IRAN CAN HAVE ENRICHMENT UP TO 3.67 WHICH CAN BE USED TO EVEN BE SENT IN A CYCLE, URANIUM COMES IN AND IS ENRICHED, IT GOES TO RUSSIA TO BE CONVERTED TO FUEL, IT COMES BACK AND THAT IS POSSIBLE.

IT HAS BEEN DONE BEFORE, IT JUST HAS TO BE DONE IN A DIFFERENT WAY BECAUSE TRUMP WANTS ANOTHER KIND OF A DEAL.

THEY JUST NEED TO REFORMAT THAT.

>> THE ORIGINAL GCOP DID NOT HAVE A DEAL, NOW THEY WANT TO LOOK AT MISSILES AND INCLUDE NEGOTIATIONS OVER MISSILES.

>> IT WAS IN THE U.N.

RESOLUTION AND THAT ARRANGEMENT WAS NOT FOR USE OF MISSILES THAT ARE SPECIALLY DESIGNED FOR THE NUCLEAR DELIVERY, AND THEREFORE THAT CAN BE A BASIS BUT I DON'T THINK FRANCE FOCUSES ON MISSILES RIGHT NOW AND RIGHTLY SO BUT LOOKING AT WHAT HE DOES AND WHAT HE SAYS, AND I THINK IT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE TO FOCUS FIRST ON THE ISSUES THAT HAVE BEEN DEALT WITH BEFORE AND THE MAIN SOURCE OF CONCERN, NUCLEAR THREAT AS THE U.S. SEES IT, MONITORING, AND ON THE OTHER SIDE, THE SANCTIONS.

THE FOURTH ELEMENT, IF YOU DO THIS, THIS TIME AROUND, NOT LIKE THE FIRST TIME AROUND, BUT HOW CAN THE U.S.

BENEFIT IN THIS.

>> YOU SEEM UPBEAT ON THIS, WHY WOULD YOU BE IN TERMS OF DEALING WITH THE PRESIDENT WHO SHOWED THAT WHAT HE DID WAS PULL OUT OF THE LAST AGREEMENT.

>> THERE IS STILL A LONG WAY TO GO, IT IS DIFFICULT TO SAY, BUT MY VIEW IS EVENTUALLY, WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE, THE IRANIAN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SUFFERING A LOT, THEY WANT TO SEE A CHANGE IN THIS SITUATION, THERE NEEDS TO BE A GRAND OPENING OF COLLABORATION AND ACTIVITY FROM IRAN, NOT JUST CHINA AND OTHERS, BUT ALSO FROM THE WEST.

THAT CAN BRING HOPE TO THE IRANIAN PEOPLE.

AND YOU KNOW THEY ARE VERY TALENTED, SOME OF THEM DOMINATED AT SILICON VALLEY.

WHAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO SEE, TO BE ABLE TO SIT ON THEIR LAPTOP AND BE ABLE TO EXCHANGE WITH SOMEBODY IN CALIFORNIA, SELL IT TO THEM, GET THEIR MONEY, THESE ARE SIMPLE THINGS, IT IS ALL OBSTACLES.

>> WE WILL SEE WHAT HAPPENS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>> BENJAMIN NETANYAHU TAKES A MUCH HARDER LINE, AND THERE'S ALSO DIVISIONS WITHIN TRUMP'S OWN NATIONAL SECURITY CABINET OVER WHETHER TO TAKE THE DIPLOMATIC OR MILITARY ROUTE, THIS WEEK MARKED THE 80th ANNIVERSARY OF THE BERGEN CONCENTRATION CAMP IN GERMANY, JUST A FEW MONTHS AFTER THE COMMEMORATION, AUSCHWITZ WAS COMMEMORATED, IT WAS THE EPICENTER OF THE HORRORS OF THE HOLOCAUST.

THESE GRIM ANNIVERSARIES OFFER US OPPORTUNITIES FOR FLEXION AND NOW IN A NEW PBS DOCUMENTARY, THE HOLOCAUST, 80 YEARS ON, SIMON TRAVELS ACROSS EUROPE TO SPEAK TO SURVIVORS AND BETTER UNDERSTAND THIS VERY DARK PERIOD IN OUR HISTORY.

AS A BRITISH JEW, IT IS ALSO DEEPLY PERSONAL FOR HIM.

>> ALL OVER THE WORLD, HATRED IS ON THE RISE, AND WE REACHED A MOMENT OF THE LAST SURVIVORS PASSING ON, IT IS UP TO US HISTORIANS TO MAKE SURE THE FULL ENORMITY OF WHAT HAPPENED WILL ALWAYS BE REMEMBERED.

>> AUSCHWITZ DID NOT FALL FROM THE SKY, IT WAS STEP-BY-STEP.

>> SIMON JOINS US TO DISCUSS WHAT HE LEARNED ON THIS PARTICULAR JOURNEY.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, YOUR FILM THE HOLOCAUST 80 YEARS ON WILL BE AIRING ON PBS ON TUESDAY.

WHY DID YOU WANT TO MAKE THIS FILM NOW?

>> WELL, TWO REASONS REALLY, ONE, THIS PAINFUL PARADOX WE ARE FACING RIGHT NOW, NAMELY THERE HAS NEVER BEEN MORE HOLOCAUST EDUCATION AVAILABLE WITHIN SCHOOLS, BUT WE ARE ALSO FACED WITH A KIND OF IRRUPTION OF ANTI-SEMITISM, VERY UPSETTING I THINK, IT HAS ALMOST BEEN NORMALIZED, NOT JUST IN THE KIND OF FAR LEFT AND FAR RIGHT BUT ACTUALLY, IT'S ALMOST THE RESULT OF PEOPLE YAWNING WHEN THEY HEAR THE WORD AUSCHWITZ BECAUSE THEY THINK THEY KNOW EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT IT AND THE HOLOCAUST USED PRETEXTS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE PASSIONATELY DEVOTED TO ISRAEL, BOTH RIGHTLY AND WRONGLY, SO I HAVE KNOWN FOR A WHILE, THIS WASN'T THE WHOLE STORY AND THERE WAS MUCH MORE TO IT AND A DIFFERENT KIND OF STORY TO TELL, BOTH IN TERMS OF TIMING AND ALSO IN TERMS OF ULTIMATELY HOW TO UNIQUELY TALK ABOUT THIS CATASTROPHE AND HOW IT CAME ABOUT.

SO WE BEGIN THE STORY AS YOU KNOW OF HORRIFYING MASSACRES, AS EARLY AS DECEMBER OF 1941 AND IN SPATIAL TERMS AS WELL, IT ISN'T JUST THE GERMANS WHO BRING THIS ABOUT.

SO OUR MISSION, WE FELT INCLUDING MYSELF, I LEARNED A LOT WHILE FILMING IT AND RESEARCHING IT, THERE WAS A LOT MORE TO SAY, A LOT MORE THAT URGENTLY NEEDS TO BE SAID AND SHOWN.

>> WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN LITHUANIA?

>> IT WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY, HORRIFYINGLY TRAGIC MOMENT, ALMOST AS SOON AS THE GERMANS INVADED LITHUANIA IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE.

THEY ARE EMBARKING ON AN EXPERIMENT, THERE'S NO QUESTION, THE EXTERMINATION WAS THE TOP OF THE AGENDA BUT HOW IT COULD POSSIBLY DO -- BE DONE, IT WAS A MATTER OF PRACTICAL STRATEGIES, SO IT WAS NECESSARY REALLY TO TEST THE WATERS, TO SEE IF LOCAL POPULATIONS IN EASTERN EUROPE WOULD BE MORE THAN WILLING COLLABORATORS, SO A FEW DAYS, JUST A VERY FEW DAYS AFTER THE GERMANS OCCUPIED FOR EXAMPLE THE CITIES OF KINDNESS, TERRIBLE MASSACRES OCCURRED WHICH IS WHY MY MOTHER'S FAMILY ORIGINALLY CAME FROM.

>> THERE WERE 40 SYNAGOGUES BEFORE THE WAR, AND THEY WERE AN AMAZING COMMUNITY, FIVE YIDDISH NEWSPAPERS, THOSE YOUTH ORGANIZATIONS, THERE WAS AN ATHLETIC CLUB.

THERE WAS EVERY KIND OF JEWISH ACTIVITY.

SO IT WAS FLOURISHING, PROSPERING, CULTURALLY AND IN EVERY OTHER WAY, TOO.

AND THAT'S WHY WHEN A FEW DAYS AFTER THE GERMANS ARRIVED IN THE LAST WEEK OF JUNE, THE SHOCK OF THE HATRED THAT THE JEWISH COMMITTEE FELT WAS TRAUMATIC.

THERE IS AN EXTRAORDINARY MASSACRE OF THE AGRICULTURAL UNION, SOMETHING BETWEEN 50 AND 70 JEWS ARE BEATEN TO DEATH WITH IRON BARS, AND THE WHOLE THING IS PHOTOGRAPHED AND FILMED.

THIS HAPPENS IN BROAD DAYLIGHT WITH SPECTATORS STANDING AROUND.

HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS OF MASSACRES OCCURRED IN 1941, BEFORE AUSCHWITZ WAS EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT AS A DEATH CAMP, SOMETHING LIKE ONE POINT MANY PEOPLE WERE MURDERED BY SHOOTINGS IN THAT EARLY STAGE.

SO THE GERMANS HAD THEIR ANSWER, THEY HAD HELPERS RIGHT THROUGH THE BELT OF EASTERN EUROPE, AND THE BALTIC STREET.

BUT, PART OF OUR MISSION WAS THAT WE SHOULD INFRINGE IN FRONT OF THESE THINGS.

WE SHOULDN'T REDUCE THEM TO SIMPLY NUMERICAL DATA.

>> THERE IS FASCINATING DOCUMENTATIONS IN THE FILM, AND IT MAKES ME WONDER, WHY IS IT THAT WE CAN SET ASIDE OUR HUMANITY TO NO LONGER SEE THAT PERSON THAT WALKED THE STREETS WITH YOU YESTERDAY AS NO LONG -- LONGER WORTHY OF LIFE ANYMORE.

IT IS A FOOTAGE OF A HISTORIAN WHO HAD BEEN FROM THAT AREA SHE IS WEARING A TOOTH FROM A BODY.

>> YES, THE WOMAN IS ASKED BY THE INTERVIEWER, WAS THE PEOPLE LIVING OR DEAD WHEN YOU GOT THE TOOTH, AND SHE SAID WITH THIS EXTRAORDINARY EXPRESSION, THEY WERE VERY MUCH ALIVE.

THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WERE DEAD, AND IT ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION, WHAT IS IT ABOUT US REALLY THAT CAN DO THAT?

BUT ONE OF THE SURVIVORS WE INTERVIEWED BEFORE HE DIED, SAYS VERY PROFOUNDLY, AUSCHWITZ DID NOT FALL FROM THE SKY.

>> AUSCHWITZ DID NOT FALL FROM THE SKY, IT COMES STEP-BY-STEP, EVIL COMES STEP-BY-STEP.

AND YOU SHOULDN'T BE IN DIFFERENT.

LET'S START WITH REDUCING HATE, AND TRYING TO UNDERSTAND AS A PEOPLE.

>> IT TAKES HUNDREDS OF YEARS OF DEHUMANIZATION TO MAKE PEOPLE SUDDENLY REALIZE THEY ARE NOT REALLY HUMANS AT ALL, THEY MIGHT BE LIVING AMONG US, THEY MIGHT HAVE BUSINESSES LIKE WE DO, THEY MIGHT SEEM LIKE THE REST OF US BUT TRULY THEY REALLY AREN'T.

IN THE CASE OF THE JEWS, THEY WERE THOUGHT OF AS CARRYING INFECTIOUS DISEASES FOR EXAMPLE, THIS LITERALLY PEDESTRIAN PERMIT, SO MANY HUNDREDS OF YEARS LATER, THEY SAY THIS IS REALLY A CASE OF PEST EXTERMINATION.

PEOPLE WERE ALREADY PRIMED BY GENERATIONS OF UNSPEAKABLE HATRED, RACIST MEMORIES TO DO THAT.

YOU KNOW, THAT IS THE INTELLECTUAL EXPLANATION, EMOTIONALLY TO ME, AFTER ALL THIS TIME, AFTER ALL THIS RESEARCH, IT STILL DOESN'T QUITE COMPUTE BECAUSE THE BETTER PART OF OURSELVES DOESN'T WANT TO MAKE IT COMPUTE BUT IT UNFORTUNATELY DOES.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS FASCINATING ABOUT YOUR FILM, I SEE THIS SCALE OF THE BUREAUCRACY, YOU CALL IT THE HOLOCAUST WITH GLOVES ON.

WHAT WAS HAPPENING?

>> THE MOST PAINFUL THING, A LOT OF MY LIFE HAS BEEN SPENT RESEARCHING DARK HISTORY, THE NETHERLANDS WAS THE MOST TOLERANT, HOSPITABLE PLACE FOR JEWS TO LIVE IN EUROPE, BETWEEN THE EARLY 17th CENTURY AND UNTIL THE HOLOCAUST ARRIVED.

SO UPSETTING TO REALIZE THAT THE NETHERLANDS HAD THE HIGHEST RATE OF MASSACRE AND EXTERMINATION IN ALL OF WESTERN EUROPE.

>> I THINK SORT OF THE DUMBFOUNDING THING IS THAT AN ENTIRE WORLD, MORE THAN 100,000 COULD BE MADE TO DISAPPEAR WITH INSTITUTIONAL PASSIVENESS.

EASTERN EUROPE AND AUSCHWITZ SEEMS LIKE THE HOLOCAUST, BUT THE HOLOCAUST CAN ALSO COME WITH GLOVES ON UNTIL THEY ARE TAKEN OFF.

AND THAT IS AS HORRIFYING IN ITS OWN WAY.

>> SO, WHEN YOU TACKLE THAT, YOU SEE TWO THINGS, THE GENUINE SENSE AMONG THE DUTCH, ESPECIALLY IN AMSTERDAM, THE SOLIDARITY AND BROTHERHOOD, IN THE FIRST YEAR OF THE GERMAN OCCUPATION, THERE'S ALL KINDS OF SIGNS OF RESISTANCE WHEN JEWS USED TO WEAR A YELLOW STAR, PEOPLE DOFFED THEIR ASH IN THE STREET, MOST REMARKABLY THERE WAS A MASSIVE STRIKE AGAINST DEPORTATIONS THAT TOOK LACE IN FEBRUARY OF 1941.

AFTER THAT, TWO THINGS HAPPENED, THE GERMANS HIT VERY HARD ANYBODY THAT HAD A PROTEST, THEY REPLACED THE POLICE, BUT THE OTHER THING IS, THEY CREATED A BUREAUCRATIC APPARATUS, IT IS NOT LIKE UKRAINE, IT IS NOT LIKE LITHUANIA WHERE PEOPLE WERE BEATEN IN BROAD DAYLIGHT AND TAKEN OFF IN CATTLE CARS.

BUT, THE FIRST THING IS A SYSTEM OF INFORMATION, OF IDENTITY CARDS.

THERE WAS SOMETHING IN THE FILM WHICH SHOWED EXACTLY WHERE THE GROUP OF 10 JEWS WERE LIVING, AND IT WASN'T JUST IN THE JEWISH QUARTER, IT WAS ALL OVER THE CITY AND WHEN THAT INFORMATION IS COLLECTED, THE SECOND IN COMMAND OF THE OCCUPATION TELLS HIS SUPERIOR, WE NOW HAVE THE JEWS IN THE BACK.

SO THEY WERE VERY NIMBLE IN A WAY, THEY COULD GO FOR FULL ON SLAUGHTER AND TERROR OR THEY COULD RELY NOT ON BARBARIC COLLABORATIONS IN BROAD DAYLIGHT MASSACRE BUT ON BUREAUCRATIC INDIFFERENCE, THE INSTITUTIONS, PEOPLE WHO DID NOT WANT TO PUT THEIR HEAD ABOVE, WHO FELT THEY WERE JUST DOING THEIR INITIATIVE WORK IN REGISTERING JEWS WHICH WAS EXCESSIVE, AND ACCESSORY TO THEIR SLAUGHTER.

>> THIS SEEMS TO BE THE STORY FROM LITHUANIA TO WARSAW, YOU REALLY GO OUT OF YOUR WAY TO SHOW THE LEVEL OF RISK THAT HISTORIANS HAVE PUT IN THE TIME OF THE HOLOCAUST TO ARCHIVE THIS, BUT THEN ALSO TO TRY TO PRESERVE THIS MATERIAL AND TO BE ABLE TO PRESENT IT FOR US.

>> YES, THAT IS EXACTLY RIGHT.

IF I HAD ONE BRIEF TO MYSELF APART FROM SHOWING THIS TO PEOPLE WHO ARE LESS FAMILIAR WITH AUSCHWITZ, IT WAS KIND OF HONOR THE SENSE THAT THEY WERE MEMORY KEEPERS, SO MANY OF THEM ACTUALLY, PARTICULARLY WHEN THEY RESIGNED THEMSELVES TO THE FACT IT WAS VERY UNLIKELY THAT THEY WOULD SURVIVE AND VERY FEW OF THEM DID, SAID OVER AND OVER AGAIN, WE WANT WHAT WE ARE DOING, WE WANT OUR RECORD, OUR WITNESS, TESTIMONY, EVIDENCE TO SURVIVE.

IN THE CASE OF THE WONDERFUL WARSAW GROUP, LED BY A HISTORIAN TO WHOM I HAVE PROFESSIONAL REVERENCE, THEY HID THEIR ARCHIVES IN MILK JUGS AND STEEL CASES AND BURIED THEM UNDER A SCHOOL.

AND THEY WERE SO OBSESSED WITH THE SURVIVAL OF THESE DOCUMENTS THAT ONLY A TINY NUMBER OF THIS GROUP OF 60 PEOPLE NEW AT ANY MOMENT THE LOCATION OF WHERE THOSE RECORDS WERE, LEST THEY BE TORTURED AND FORCED TO REVEAL IT.

>> YOU SAID I WONDER HOW I WOULD HAVE DEALT WITH IT, WE CAN SEE WITH SEVERAL SHOTS, YOU CAN KIND OF SEE THEM WALKING INTO JUST PLACES THAT ARE THE WORST OF HUMANITY.

>> YES, AND THAT HAS NEVER LEFT ME, ACTUALLY, WHILE IT IS FILMING, AND EVER SINCE.

THE PARTICULAR MOMENT WHEN I ACTUALLY SAY THAT, IS QUITE PROFOUND, YOU REMEMBER THESE EXTRAORDINARY COURIERS ESCAPE FROM THE FIRST GASSING CAMPS AND MAKE IT TO WARSAW.

AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE KIND OF PSYCHOLOGICAL AS WELL AS PHYSICAL CARE OF THIS CATASTROPHICALLY BLEAK EPISODE HAS TO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT THEY ACTUALLY HEARD, AND WHETHER THESE GASSING PLACES SHOULD BE WIDESPREAD THROUGHOUT THE POPULATION.

WHETHER THAT IS GOING TO DO MORE HARM OR MORE GOOD AND AS YOU MIGHT EXPECT, THEY ARE DIVIDED ABOUT THAT.

THE MAJORITY DECIDE PANIC IS NOT NECESSARILY GOING TO BE A GOOD THING SO I THINK IT IS A FUNNY THING, I'M AN OLD GUY NOW AND I HAVE BEEN DOING HISTORY FOR 60 YEARS REALLY, AS AN ACADEMIC, AS WELL AS A POPULAR WRITER, IT'S THE ONE HISTORY THAT DOESN'T FIT INTO THE BOX OF HISTORICAL ANALYSIS FOR ME ANYWAY, WHERE YOU CAN DESCRIBE THE PHENOMENON, YOU SEEK THE CAUSES, YOU TRY TO DESCRIBE THE EFFECTS AND ABOUT 10 YEARS AGO EVERYBODY THOUGHT, THE SURVIVORS ARE DYING OUT, THE HOLOCAUST IS LONG-AGO, IT IS HISTORY, SUBJECT TO THE SAME COOL ANALYSIS THAT WE DO WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE ORIGINS OF THE FIRST WORLD WAR.

IT IS NOT LIKE THAT.

ACTUALLY, IT ESCAPES THE TOMB OF REASON, IT ESCAPES THE BOX OF REASON, SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

A LOT OF THINGS WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, YOU CANNOT BELIEVE HOW PEOPLE CAN TURN ON THEIR NEIGHBORS, HOW SOMEBODY CAN STAND IN BROAD DAYLIGHT AND BEAT AN OLD MAN TO DEATH WITH AN IRON BAR, ALL THESE TERRIBLE THINGS.

IT IS NOT LIKE OTHER KINDS OF HISTORY, IT WALKS AND TALKS AND STALKS ARE PRESENT AND FUTURE, TOO.

>> I WANT TO ASK, HOW MUCH OF OUR COLLECTIVE, I GUESS FADING MEMORY IS BECAUSE OF THOSE GENERAL RECENCY BIASES THAT WE HAVE, WHEN YOU JUST HAVE THIS TENDENCY TO MAYBE ASSUME, THIS IS HISTORY, THIS IS IT TODAY, THIS COULDN'T HAPPEN NOW.

BUT I DON'T KNOW, HAVE WE LET OUR DEFENSES DOWN?

>> I THINK WE ARE IN TERRIBLE JEOPARDY BECAUSE OF A SHORT ATTENTION SPAN, BECAUSE OF THE KIND OF CULT OF THE IMMEDIATE, IF YOU THINK ABOUT INSTAGRAM AND SNAPCHATTED, BUT THE YOUNG ARE SEDUCED AND FIXATED AND IMPATIENCE IS EXCITING, BRING THE NEXT THING ON.

BRING THE NEXT MOMENT ON.

THIS IS FADED COLORS, AS YOU SAY, IN BLACK AND WHITE, COULD BE AS REMOTE AS THE EGYPTIANS AT THE TIME OF THE PYRAMIDS OR SOMETHING.

THAT'S WHY HISTORIANS STRUGGLE AS WE MIGHT CONTINUE TO PERSIST WITH THE NOTION, BUT THE PAST LIVES AMONGST US, IT NEVER REALLY GOES AWAY, WE ARE THE SUM OF OUR PASTS AS WELL AS THE HOPE FOR BREAKING FREE OF THEM IN SOME CASE AND HAVING A BETTER FUTURE, BUT WHAT THE PAST TELLS US, IT IS NOT LIKE ANTIQUE COLLECTING.

IT IS AN INSURANCE POLICY AGAINST MAKING THE SAME HORRIBLE MISTAKE EVER AGAIN.

AND IN THE CASE OF THE HOLOCAUST, THE MANY WAYS IN WHICH EVIL AND CATASTROPHE COMPOUNDS ON YOU, FROM THE LIBERATION OF HORRIFIC VIOLENCE TO THIS SINISTER STEP-BY-STEP, SNEAKY APPROACH, GRADUAL DEGRADATION INTO RUIN.

THAT CAN HAPPEN AT ANY TIME AND AT ANY PLACE.

>> THE FILM IS CALLED THE HOLOCAUST, 80 YEARS ON, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THAT IS OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT, IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR .

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS,CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST, MARK J. BLECHNER, THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU, THANK YOU.

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