>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT IS COMING UP .

>>> THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN QUITE CLEAR.

THEY MUST FOLLOW FEDERAL LAW AND YOU WANT TO SEE HARVARD APOLOGIZE.

>> BUT HARVARD WON'T, AND OTHERS ARE STANDING UP TO TRUMP.

MICHAEL ROTH, PRESIDENT OF WESLEYAN UNIVERSITY, JOINS ME.

>>> THEN -- THE RELIGIOUS LEADERS STANDING AS A MORAL BEACON.

WHY POPE FRANCIS OFFERS HOPE THESE DAYS.

>>> PLUS -- >> SOMETIMES, WE WANT TO MAKE SENSE OF RELIGIOUS CONVERSION OR WANT TO THINK ABOUT IT THROUGH A LENS THAT IS SOCIOLOGICAL, OR ACADEMIC BUT IN SOME WAYS, A KIND OF DOESN'T FIT NEATLY INTO THOSE CATEGORIES.

IT CAN ALMOST BE THOUGHT OF MORE AS, LIKE, THE ACT OF FALLING IN LOVE.

>> GOT STRUCK, THE WOMEN TURNING TO RELIGION IN INCREASINGLY SECULAR TIMES.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WIER, SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B POINTA ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT AND HAS AUTISM, FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK J. BLESSIN ARE, FILMON M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, JAY MELVIN, PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANTZ-COONEY FUND, JOEL CHARLES ROSENBLUM, CU AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE-ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND JEFF ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS RAMPING UP ITS MOORE ON HIGHER EDUCATION.

HAARBERG, ARGUABLY THE WORLD MOST IMPORTANT ACADEMIC INSTITUTION, IS PUSHING BACK IT IS A $2 BILLION GAMBLE AFTER THE UNIVERSITY REFUSED TO BOW TO THE TRUMP DEMAND TO DROP THE EI MEASURES AND PUNISH STUDENT PROTESTERS.

THE ADMINISTRATION SWIFTLY FROZE THOSE FUNDS AND IS NOW THREATENING ITS TAX-EXEMPT STATUS.

THAT KIND OF PRESIDENTIAL INTERFERENCE WOULD BE ILLEGAL UNDER FEDERAL LAW.

MORE THAN 600 FOREIGN STUDENTS, FACULTY, AND RESEARCHERS AT OVER 90 UNIVERSITIES ACROSS AMERICA HAVE HAD THEIR VISAS REVOKED.

IN UNPRECEDENTED CRACKDOWN ON FREEDOM OF SPEECH, SEVERAL OF THESE STUDENTS, INCLUDING U.S. GREEN CARD HOLDERS HAVE BEEN ARRESTED AND FACE DEPORTATION WITH NO CHARGES FILED AND NO DUE PROCESS.

WHILE SOME UNIVERSITIES LIKE COLUMBIA HAVE BUCKLED UNDER THE FINANCIAL PRESSURE AND TRUMP WON DEMANDS, HARVARD IS NOT ALONE IN RESISTING.

PRINCETON AND A GROWING NUMBER OF OTHERS ARE FIGHTING BACK, INCLUDING WESLEYAN UNIVERSITY, WAS ON FEDERAL FUNDING HAS BEEN THREATENED AND PRESIDENT MICHAEL ROTH IS JOINING ME NOW FROM CONNECTICUT.

PRESIDENT MICHAEL ROTH, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> LET ME FIRST ASK YOU, WHERE YOU DISCOVERED THE STEEL IN YOUR SPINE NOT TO BREAK?

WHAT WAS THE POINT AT WHICH YOU SAID, WE CANNOT DO THIS?

>> WELL, THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION, BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME THINGS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CAN RIGHTLY INSIST UPON.

I DON'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH THOSE THINGS, BUT I DO HAVE TO COMPLY WITH THE LAW.

FOR EXAMPLE, THE END OF AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, IT WAS A CHANGE IN HOW WE DO ADMISSIONS, AND WE OBEY THE LAW.

WE DON'T USE RACIAL PREFERENCES AT ALL IN OUR ADMISSIONS PROCESS.

I THINK WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO, BUT THE GOVERNMENT DISAGREES, AND WE FOLLOW THE LAW.

THAT SEEMS PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD.

IN OUR CASE, WE GOT RID OF LEGACY ADMISSIONS ALSO AT THAT TIME, BECAUSE IF WE ARE NOT GOING TO GIVE PREFERENCES, WE SHOULDN'T GIVE PREFERENCES TO OUR ALUMNI EITHER, BUT THERE ARE SOME THINGS, WHICH THE GOVERNMENT INSISTS UPON, WHICH ARE TO TELL UNIVERSITIES WHO WOULD ADMIT TO TELL UNIVERSITIES HOW TO TEACH, TO TELL UNIVERSITIES HOW TO UNDERSTAND THE LONGING, OR FAIRNESS ON THEIR CAMPUSES, AND I THINK THE OUTRAGEOUS ARRESTS AND THREATENED DEPORTATION OF INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS REALLY MADE ME STAND UP AND WRITE SOME ESSAYS ABOUT THIS, EVEN THOUGH I DISAGREE DEEPLY WITH THE POLITICS OF THOSE STUDENTS.

THAT SHOULDN'T MATTER.

IN AMERICA, YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SPEAK YOUR MIND, WHETHER YOU HAVE A GREEN CARD OR YOU ARE A CITIZEN.

FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO SHOW UP ONE DAY AT YOUR DOOR AND TAKE YOU AWAY BECAUSE OF THE IDEAS YOU EXPRESS?

THAT IS ANTI-AMERICAN, ANTI- EDUCATIONAL, AND UNDERMINES OUR FREEDOM.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT.

YOU WROTE AN OP-ED IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES," ESSENTIALLY SAYING , BASICALLY, THE HEADLINE WAS TRUMP'S SELLING JEWS A DANGEROUS LIE, AND YOU WROTE, JEW HATRED IS REAL, BUT TODAY'S ANTI-ANTI-SEMITISM ISN'T A LEGITIMATE EFFORT TO FIGHT IT, IT IS A COVER FOR A WIDE RANGE OF AGENDAS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WELFARE OF JEWISH PEOPLE JEWS WHO APPLIED THE ADMINISTRATION'S CRACKDOWN WILL SOON FIND THAT THEY DO SO AT THEIR PERIL.

THIS IS REALLY AN IMPORTANT STATEMENT.

SO, EXPLAIN, FIRST OF ALL, THE LAST SEGMENT, WILL SOON FIND THAT THEY APPLIED THIS AT THEIR PERIL.

YOU ARE ADDRESSING YOUR OWN COMMUNITY.

>> YES.

AS A JEW MYSELF, I AM APPALLED THAT PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT ISRAEL WILL ALIGN THEMSELVES WITH AN ADMINISTRATION THAT IS USING SCAPEGOATING, RACISM, AND WHICH HAS NO TROUBLE BEING WITH NAZIS'S -- NAZIS, FOR ISRAEL, AND I MYSELF BELIEVE IN ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF, I'M WITH THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT IN ISRAEL, BUT NONE OF THAT SHOULD MATTER.

THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN SAY THAT YOU'RE FIGHTING AT THE SEMITISM AND THEN CANCELED THE I -- DEI PROGRAMS WHICH CAN ACTUALLY USE TO PROTECT JEWS IS ABSURD.

THE IDEA TO SAY THAT YOU ARE FIGHTING AT THE SEMITISM TO CANCEL GRANTS FOR DIABETES RESEARCH OR ALZHEIMER'S RESEARCH?

THIS IS RIDICULOUS.

WHAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS DOING NOW IS DEMANDING A LOYALTY OATH.

THEY ARE DEMANDING THAT SCHOOLS EXPRESS LOYALTY TO THE PRESIDENT AND HIS CURRENT BELIEFS.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANTI-ANTI-SEMITISM, AND JEWS WHO ALIGN THEMSELVES WITH LEADERS BECAUSE THEY THINK THE LEADERS ARE PICKING ON OTHER PEOPLE , EVENTUALLY, THOSE PEOPLE, THE JEWS FIND THEMSELVES THE TARGET OF THAT SAME ABUSE.

WE HAVE SEEN THIS THROUGHOUT HISTORY, THE RABBIS HAVE TALKED ABOUT IT, BEWARE OF GOVERNMENTS THAT SEEM TO BE YOUR FRIEND, THEN VIOLATE THE LAW.

YOU MAY LIKE THE WAY THEY VIOLATE THE LAW NOW, BUT IN THE FUTURE, IT WILL BE AT OUR OWN EXPENSE.

>> THIS IS VERY INTERESTING, BECAUSE AS YOU RIGHTLY SAY, THERE ARE A LOT OF RABBIS AND JEWISH ORGANIZATIONS WHO ARE VOICING WHAT YOU ARE SAYING NOW, THEY'RE VERY UNCOMFORTABLE.

THE PICTURE OF THE YOUNG TURKISH STUDENT, THE FEMALE TURKISH STUDENT, WHICH WE ARE GOING TO RUN NOW, BEING APPROACHED, IN PLAIN-CLOSED PEOPLE IN HOODIES, PLAIN, UNMARKED CARS, JUST SWEPT OFF THE STREET, THAT REALLY TURNED PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, ACROSS AMERICA, AND OF COURSE, A LEGAL FROM COLUMBIA, WHOSE WIFE IS AMERICAN AND REGNANT -- WHIPPED OFF IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, KHALIL.

TO OF THESE PEOPLE ARE STILL UNDER, AMONGST ANY OTHERS, STILL IN DETENTION WITH NO DUE PROCESS , AND THAT HAS STARTED TO WORRY A LOT OF PEOPLE.

WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS IS GOING -- WHAT ARE YOU DOING, FOR INSTANCE, ON YOUR CAMPUS, TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY, BUT NOT ALLOW THIS KIND OF, AS YOU CALL IT, YOU KNOW, EXTRAJUDICIAL PROCESS AGAINST SOME OF THESE STUDENTS?

>> YEAH.

WE HAVE TALKED A LOT ON OUR CAMPUS -- IT IS A SMALL CAMPUS -- ABOUT 3000 OR SO STUDENTS -- WE TALK A LOT ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF PROTECTING EVERYONE.

EVERYONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO THRIVE.

ANTI-SEMITISM IS A REAL THING.

WHEN WE SEE IT, WE STOP IT, BUT WE DON'T WANT TO SEE OUR STUDENTS LIVING IN FEAR OF THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT.

I WAS TALKING TO A GROUP OF PERSPECTIVE STUDENTS THIS MORNING AND THEIR PARENTS, AND SOMEONE ASKED ME, HOW DO YOU FIND THE COURAGE TO SPEAK OUT, AND I SAID TO THEM, LISTEN TO YOURSELVES, THIS IS A PLACE LIKE AMERICA, WHY IS IT A QUESTION THAT THERE SHOULD BE FREEDOM TO SPEAK OUT.

IF I'M A YOUNG PALESTINIAN, WANT TO WRITE AN ESSAY IN THE SCHOOL'S NEWSPAPER OR A YOUNG JEW AND WHITE -- WANT TO WRITE AN ARTICLE, SHOULDN'T BE WORRIED TO BE CRACKED DOWN FOR MY OPINIONS.

IT IS UN-AMERICAN, AN ATTACK ON FREEDOM, AND WHETHER I AGREE WITH THE PROTESTERS OR NOT, I THINK IT IS IRRELEVANT, AND IT SHOULD BE IRRELEVANT TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.WE SHOULD BE PROTECTING FREEDOM, NOT EVEN NOTING IT IN THE SERVICE OF THE PRESIDENT'S IDEOLOGY.

>> AS YOU SAY, THIS IS HAVING A VERY CHILLING EFFECT, BUT NOW THAT MORE AND MORE OF UNIVERSITY LEADERS ARE STANDING UP, MAYBE IT WILL FIND ITS OWN WATER LEVEL AGAIN.

I WANT TO PLAY THIS LITTLE SOUNDBITE FROM THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF HARVARD, LARRY SUMMERS, ALSO FORMER TREASURY SECRETARY.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID ABOUT THIS CRACKDOWN.

>> THIS IS AN ATTEMPT TO IMPOSE THE KIND OF REGULATIONS ON HARVARD THAT IS IMPOSED BY GOVERNMENT ON UNIVERSITIES IN COUNTRIES THAT WE DON'T THINK OF AS DEMOCRACIES, COUNTRIES THAT DON'T HAVE FREE SPEECH, PROTECTIONS, AND SO, ONE OBVIOUSLY SHOULD FOLLOW THE LAW, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN OBEYING GOVERNMENT EDICTS WHEN THOSE EDICTS ARE, THEMSELVES, EXTRA LAWFUL.

>> YOU KNOW, I'M SITTING HERE IN THE UK, AND I COVER PARTS OF THE WORLD WHICH ARE NOT DEMOCRACIES, DON'T HAVE PROTECTIONS, AND DO CRACKDOWN ON THEIR STUDENTS.

RIGHT NOW, THOSE BRAVE STUDENTS WHO HAVE BEEN PROTESTING IN TURKEY, MANY, MANY OF THEM ARE IN JAIL.

OF COURSE, NO DUE PROCESS.

THIS IS THE KIND OF THING WE ARE USED TO SEEING THERE.

HOW SHOCKING IS IT, AND HOW LONG DO YOU THINK IT CAN LAST IN THE UNITED STATES?

>> IT IS TERRIFICALLY SHOCKING, AND I FEAR IT WILL LAST IF PEOPLE DON'T SPEAK OUT AGAINST IT IT WILL LAST IF CITIZENS, WHETHER THEY ARE AT UNIVERSITIES OR ELSEWHERE, SAY, WE NEED TO PROTECT OUR FREEDOM.

IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT UNIVERSITIES.

THIS WILL BE ABOUT BUSINESSES, THIS IS ABOUT CHURCHES, SYNAGOGUES, MOSQUES, THIS IS ABOUT CIVIL SOCIETY, WHERE ONE SHOULD HAVE THE ABILITY TO SPEAK FREELY, AND OUR POSITION, AS AMERICANS IN THE UNIVERSITY WORLD, HAS BEEN SO STRONG, BECAUSE WE HAVE FREEDOM OF INQUIRY, WE HAVE PROFESSIONALS MAKING DECISIONS ABOUT MOLECULAR BIOLOGY RESEARCH, OR ABOUT CANCER RESEARCH.

WE DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT TRYING TO DO THAT.

THE GOVERNMENT HAS SUPPORTED THAT WORK WITH FUNDING.

THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT AND HAS MADE US A STRONGER NATION, BUT IT HAS NEVER DEMANDED IDEOLOGICAL LOYALTY UNTIL NOW, AND WE MUST REJECT THOSE DEMANDS AND PROTECT OUR FREEDOMS.

>> DID THE McCARTHY ERA DEMAND IDEOLOGICAL LOYALTY DURING THAT TIME FROM UNIVERSITIES?

I KNOW THE OTHER AREAS, THE RED BAITING, ET CETERA, WAS IT DIRECTED AT ACADEMIA AS WELL?

>> YEAH.

ABSOLUTELY.

IT WASN'T DIRECTED FROM THE WHITE HOUSE, FOR SURE, FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, ELEMENTS OF IT LED BY McCARTHY, GOT SOME STATES TO DEMAND LOYALTY BOATS, AND PEOPLE LEFT I KNOW ACADEMICS WHO MOVED TO OTHER COUNTRIES RATHER THAN SIGN THAT LOYALTY OATH.

THIS WHOLE IDEA THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO SUBSCRIBE TO NOT EVEN A COHERENT IDEOLOGY, JUST SUPPORT THE LOYALTY, SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP, THAT IDEA FLIES IN THE FACE OF THE PURSUIT OF TRUTH, FLIES IN THE FACE OF SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH, AND IT WILL WEAKEN US.

NOT ONLY ACADEMICALLY, BUT MORALLY, IT WILL WEAKEN US POLITICALLY, AND I THINK AMERICANS WON'T STAND FOR IT.

THEY MAY LIKE THE IDEA THAT A FANCY UNIVERSITY IS GETTING ATTACKED, BECAUSE THEY'RE FANCY, BUT WE ALL BELIEVE -- I THINK -- THAT YOU ARE A CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES, OR YOU LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES, AND AS A LEGAL IMMIGRANT, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO SPEAK YOUR MIND, SEE THE PEOPLE YOU WANT TO SEE, HAVE THE MEETINGS YOU WANT TO HAVE, AND NOT WORRY ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT PEERING INTO YOUR AFFAIRS.

WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO SUPPORT GOOD WORK WITHOUT DEMANDING IDEOLOGICAL CONFORMITY.

>> I WANT TO GET MORE TO THAT.

AS YOU KNOW, THERE IS A CONSERVATIVE AGENDA TO DO EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING, BY ALL MEANS POSSIBLE, CHRIS RUFO AND THE LOT, THEY SAY, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE HIM DOWN.

THAT IS THEIR PUBLIC THING.

I'M GOING TO GET TO THAT.

I WANT TO ASK YOU, THE FUNDING THAT IS A THREAT, THE GOVERNMENT FUNDING -- WHETHER IT IS THE $TO THIS.2 BILLION AT HARVARD THAT HAS BEEN STOPPED, WITH YOUR PONY, COLUMBIA'S, ET CETERA, IS THIS FOR DEI PROJECTS, IS THIS FOR PALESTINIAN/ISRAELI STUDIES?

WHAT IS THIS FUNDING FOR?

>> IT IS FOR EVERYTHING, CHRISTIANE.

IT IS FOR SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH.

WE HAVE A RESEARCHER HERE WHO WORKS ON THINGS FOR THE PHYSICS FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE AND ENERGY.

AND, THEY JUST ARE FREEZING THINGS, BECAUSE THEY CAN, NOT BECAUSE THERE IS SOME COHERENT AGENDA THERE.

THEY ARE PUNISHING SCHOOLS FOR NOT BEING LOYAL, IN THEIR VIEW.

THEY DON'T LIKE DEI, WHICH MEANS THEY DON'T LIKE PROGRAMS THAT SUPPORT GREATER ACCESS OR INCLUSION, AND THEN ENSURE FAIRNESS.

WHY THEY WOULDN'T LIKE THAT IS SOMETHING I DON'T UNDERSTAND, BUT THEY ARE PUNISHING UNIVERSITIES WITH -- BY FREEZING BRANDS TO OTHER DIMENSIONS OF THEIR ACTIVITIES -- SO, THEY USE ANTI-SEMITISM OR ANTI-DM -- AND I DEI AS A COVER, BUT IN FACT, THEY'RE TAKING MONEY FROM ALZHEIMER'S RESEARCH, TAKING MONEY AWAY FROM CLINICAL TRIALS FOR NUTRIENT CANCER DRUGS, AND THIS IS LIKE SHOOTING OURSELVES IN THE FOOT.

IT IS REALLY TAKING THE FUNDING AWAY FROM WHAT THE UNITED STATES DOES BEST, WHICH IS TO ATTRACT GREAT SCIENTISTS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD WHO SOLVE PROBLEMS IN WAYS THAT HELP ANY PEOPLE.SO, I DO THINK THIS IS SO MUCH ABOUT LOYALTY TO THE ADMINISTRATION, AND ABOUT ATTACKING UNIVERSITIES THAT MANY PEOPLE HAVE GROWN TO RESENT , AND I THINK WE, AT UNIVERSITIES, DO NEED TO DO A BETTER JOB OF EXPANDING HOW THE WORK THAT GOES ON AT UNIVERSITIES SERVES THE COMMON GOOD, THAT IT IS GOOD FOR AMERICA, THAT DOES RESEARCH GOING ON, GOOD FOR THE UNITED STATES THAT WE HAVE STUDENTS WHO ARE ON SCHOLARSHIPS SUPPORTED BY THE GOVERNMENT, BECAUSE THOSE STUDENTS FROM MODEST ECONOMIC BACKGROUNDS GO ON TO DO GREAT THINGS AND IMPROVE THEIR STATION IN LIFE, AND THESE ARE THINGS THAT AMERICAN UNIVERSITIES HAVE DONE FOR DECADES, AND DECADES, AND TO SHAPE THEM UP JUST IN ORDER TO SHOW THAT THE WHITE HOUSE HAS THE POWER TO DO SO IS A GRAVE MISTAKE.

>> AS YOU KNOW, MANY EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AND UNIVERSITIES ARE LAYING OUT THE WELCOME MAT FOR ANYBODY WHO IS DISAFFECTED OR FIRED IN THE U.S. PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD ARE DYING FOR YOUR GREAT SCIENTISTS AND RESEARCHERS, BUT ON A MORE IMMEDIATE LEVEL, IS IT JUST ABOUT LOYALTY, OR IS IT A BIGGER CONSERVATIVE AGENDA, AS EXPRESSED BY CHRIS RUFO -- YOU HAVE HER DIG THE INTERVIEWS -- HE IS THE HEAD OF AN ORGANIZATION, CONSERVATIVE, DEDICATED TO DOING WHAT YOU JUST TOLD ME, TO TAKING DOWN LIBERAL UNIVERSITIES, SEVERAL PEGS, AND SAYING THAT THESE UNIVERSITIES, YOUR UNIVERSITIES, ARE NOT REPRESENTATIVE, THAT YOU SHOULD NOT BE, YOU KNOW, TEACHING, PAID WITH TAXPAYER MONEY FOR TEACHING CRITICAL RACE THEORY, DIVERSITY, YOU KNOW, DEI AND ALL THE REST OF IT, AND HAS ALREADY CROWED TO "THE NEW YORK TIMES," HIS GROUP HAS BROUGHT DOWN THREE PRESIDENTS.

REMEMBER HARVARD AND COLUMBIA AT THE BEGINNING OF THESE PROTESTS LAST YEAR -- HE ALSO SAYS THAT THE RATIO OF LIBERAL TO CONSERVATIVE FACULTY ACROSS THE BOARD IS TOTALLY LOPSIDED.

YOU KNOW, AND, SAYS THAT THEY WANT COLORBLIND ADMISSIONS.

DO THEY HAVE A POINT?

IS THERE ANY REFORM OR GREATER DIVERSITY, DIVERSE OPINION, OR FACULTY THAT YOU SHOULD BE INCLUDING?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I WROTE, I THINK, IN 2017 IN "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL," ABOUT THE NEED FOR AN AFFIRMATIVE ACTION PROGRAM FOR CONSERVATIVES ON UNIVERSITY CAMPUS.

THAT IS BECAUSE, THE HUMANITIES ESPECIALLY, IN TERMS OF SOCIAL SCIENCES, WE TEND TO HIRE PEOPLE WHO ARE LEFT OF CENTER, AND I HAVE TALKED WITH MY FACULTY A LOT ABOUT HOW THIS IS A BIAS, AND WE HAVE TO OVERCOME OUR BIASES IN HIRING, THAT THE FOLKS WHO GO TO GRADUATE SCHOOL IN HISTORY, PHILOSOPHY, OR ENGLISH AND SPENT 10 YEARS WORKING ON A PHD, THEY MAY BE PEOPLE WHO SKEW LEFT, RATHER THAN WRITE IN THE WORLD, BUT WE HAVE TO BE MORE AWARE, COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES, OF THE BIASES WE BRING TO THE HIRING PROCESS.

I WOULD LOVE TO SEE AN EFFORT A LOT ABOUT WANTING TO SEE MORE INTELLECTUAL AND POLITICAL DIVERSITY ON CAMPUS, BUT THE SCHOOLS THAT THEY ARE ATTACKING, IT IS NOT LIKE THEY ARE GRADUATING THESE LEGIONS OF PROGRESSIVES, OR RADICALS.

WE KNOW THAT THE PEOPLE GRADUATING FROM HARVARD THESE DAYS, THEY WANT TO BE IN WALL STREET.

THE POPULAR MAJOR IS NOT, LIKE, CRITICAL RACE THEORY, IT IS ECONOMICS.

OR, THEY ARE GOING INTO COMPUTER SCIENCE, AND THESE ARE NOT RADICALS.

THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE USING THEIR EDUCATION TO ADVANCE THEMSELVES, AND TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE ONGOING DEVELOPMENTS OF THE ECONOMY AND CULTURE.

SO, IT IS NONSENSE, ESPECIALLY IF YOU LOOK AT THE ELITE SCHOOLS, WHAT KIND OF JOBS THEY TAKE, WHAT KIND OF JOBS THEY SEEK.

THEY'RE NOT SEEKING TO BE POLITICAL ORGANIZERS IN LARGE NUMBERS.

THEY ARE SEEKING TO PLAY A ROLE IN THE ECONOMY, AND IN THE CULTURE.

HERE, AT WESLEYAN, WE HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY WANT TO BECOME TEACHERS, WE HAVE LOTS OF PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BECOME PART OF THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY.

MIRANDA HAS SPAWNED GENERATIONS OF PEOPLE WHO WANT TO WRITE THE NEXT "HAMILTON," HERE, AND, MANY OF THESE ELITE SCHOOLS, YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT GRADUATING WITH A LIVE MUSIC, FRINGE IDEAS, THEY ARE GRADUATING WITH AMBITION TO MAKE A CONTRIBUTION IN THE FIELD THEY HAVE CHOSEN.SO, ALTHOUGH I DO BELIEVE, VERY STRONGLY, THAT WE NEED MORE IDEOLOGICAL DIVERSITY ON CAMPUS, AND WE TALK ABOUT THAT ALL THE TIME NOW AT WESLEYAN, I ALSO BELIEVE THAT HAVING THE GOVERNMENT CHOOSE PEOPLE ON THE BASIS OF YOUR AUDIOLOGY -- IDEOLOGY -- IS A RECIPE FOR DISASTER.

THIS GOVERNMENT CAN'T EVEN USE THE SIGNAL APP WELL.

WE NEED PROFESSIONAL HISTORIANS CHOOSING HISTORIANS, BUT BEING MINDFUL OF THEIR MEDICAL BIASES, AND THE SAME IN ANTHROPOLOGY -- BUT I DON'T WORRY THAT PEOPLE IN CHEMISTRY ARE REALLY USING POLITICAL BIASES WHEN THEY HIRE CHEMISTS.

I DON'T WORRY THAT PEOPLE IN COMPUTER SCIENCE ARE BIASED POLITICALLY WHEN THEY CHOOSE THE COMPUTER SCIENTISTS.

THEY ARE CHOOSING PEOPLE OF -- WHO ARE SMART, WHO ARE AMBITIOUS, AND WHO CAN ADVANCE THE FIELD, AND IF WE LET THE GOVERNMENT TRY TO CHOOSE THOSE PEOPLE, WE'LL HAVE A DISASTER, BECAUSE THAT IS NOT WHAT THE GOVERNMENT IS GOOD AT.

THE GOVERNMENT IS GOOD AT FUNDING THESE DEPARTMENTS TO DO IMPORTANT WORK WITH THEIR OWN PROFESSIONAL COMPETENCIES.

THEY ARE NOT GOOD AT PICKING WINNERS.

>> I JUST 1 TO INTERRUPT FOR ONE MOMENT AND ASK YOU.

BECAUSE IT SEEMS THAT THE REACTIONS AND RESPONSES FROM THE UNIVERSITIES HAVE BEEN VERY MUCH INDIVIDUAL, AND SOMEWHAT AD HOC, AND I JUST WONDERED WHETHER ANY OF YOU ARE BANDING TOGETHER, LIKE THE IVY LEAGUE OR OTHER, YOU KNOW, YOUR LEVELS, THIS AND THAT, LIKE AN ATTACK ON ONE IS AN ATTACK ON ALL.

THERE NEEDS TO BE A CLEAR STRATEGY.

CAN'T BE ONE UNIVERSITY HAS AN ANSWER, ANOTHER UNIVERSITY HAS ANOTHER ANSWER.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT, CHRISTIANE, AND WE ARE DOING EXACTLY THAT .

FOR THE LAST FEW WEEKS, I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GET SCHOOLS TOGETHER TO MAKE SUCH A STATEMENT, AND REALLY, MAKE SUCH A COMMITMENT.I THINK IN THE NEXT FOUR OR FIVE DAYS, YOU WILL SEE STATEMENTS FROM SOME NATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, LINKING IT, THAT HAVE MANY, MANY NUMBERS.

I THINK THEY WILL NOW COME OUT WITH A DECLARATION DEFENDING THE FREEDOMS THAT ARE SO IMPORTANT FOR A GOOD EDUCATION.

I WROTE THIS BOOK CALLED "THE STUDENT," AND IT IS ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THE IDEA OF THE STUDENT.

I THOUGHT, AT THE END OF THE MODERN ERA, BEING A STUDENT MEANS YOU GET TO PRACTICE BEING FREE, AND WE NEED TO HAVE CAMPUSES WHERE PEOPLE CAN PRACTICE BEING FREE, AND SO, I THINK YOU WILL SEE COALITIONS OF COLLEGES, UNIVERSITIES, COMMUNITY COLLEGES, I WOULD SAY, THE NEXT FIVE DAYS, BRINGING OUT STATEMENTS I HAVE BEEN TALKING TO MY COLLEAGUES ABOUT THIS, THAT ARE A MUCH MORE UNIFIED FRONT.

>> THAT WOULD BE REALLY, REALLY INTERESTING.

I THINK THAT IS A GREAT, GREAT SORT OF TERM, PLACE TO PRACTICE TO BE FREE, WHAT FREEDOM MEANS, THE RESPONSIBILITY SPURRED MICHAEL ROTH, PRESIDENT OF WESLEYAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED, FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU.

>>> IT IS NOT SURPRISING SO MANY PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD TODAY ARE SEEKING ANTIDOTES AND RELIEF FROM HARD-LINE STRAWMAN POLICIES.

POPE FRANCIS HAS EMERGED AS THAT FIGUREHEAD OF THE MORAL AUTHORITY FOR THESE TIMES.

BE ON HIS 1.4 BILLION CATHOLIC FLOCK WORLDWIDE.

IN A RECENT ESSAY FOR "THE WORLD TIMES," JASON GIBSON WRITES THE AGE OF TRUMP HAS ITS PROFIT, POPE FRANCIS, AND OF COURSE, IT'S HOLY WEEK RIGHT NOW FOR CHRISTIANS AROUND THE WORLD, BUT THE HOPE WILL BE ABLE TO PRESIDE OVER THE MASSES AND GOOD FRIDAY SERVICES IN MOURNING THIS YEAR AS HE CONTINUES TO RECOVER FROM THE LONG ILLNESS.

DAVID GIBSON JOINS ME RIGHT NOW FROM NEW YORK.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IT WAS VERY, VERY INTERESTING, YOUR OP-ED, AND WE REALLY DID WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT IT, BECAUSE IT OPENED MY EYES TO A LOT OF THINGS.

FIRST OF ALL, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY, YOU KNOW, TRUMP HAS HIS PROFIT?

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> IN THE SENSE THAT, IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR THE POLAR OPPOSITE OF DONALD TRUMP IN THE MODERN WORLD, IT IS A BIT OF AN IRONY, THE POPE IN ROME -- LOOK, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WASN'T ALWAYS THE GREATEST FRIEND TO DEMOCRACY AND HUMAN RIGHTS THROUGHOUT ITS HISTORY, BUT ESPECIALLY IN THE LAST 1/2- CENTURY OR SO, THE CHURCH HAS EMERGED AS SUCH A VOCAL, MORAL VOICE ON BEHALF OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND DEMOCRACY, AND POPE FRANCIS VERY MUCH -- REMEMBER, CHRISTIANE -- A MONTH AGO, WE DIDN'T THINK THE POPE WAS GOING TO SURVIVE .

HE WAS IN THE HOSPITAL, IN INTENSIVE CARE, DOUBLE-PNEUMONIA, 88-YEAR-OLD MAN.

WE WERE WAKING UP EVERY MORNING, THINKING WE WOULD BE READING OBITUARIES.

EVERYONE WAS TALKING ABOUT HIS LEGACY AS POPE, HIS OPENNESS TO LESBIANS AND GAYS, WELCOMING REFUGEES AND MIGRANTS.

THESE ARE ALL IMPORTANT THINGS.

BUT WHAT I DON'T THINK WAS GETTING ENOUGH PLAY WAS WHAT AN IMPORTANT CHAMPION OF WHAT HE CALLS A BETTER KIND OF POLITICS, AND HIS MORAL VOICE AGAINST NATIONALIST POPULISM, THE KIND OF TRUMPIS THAT IS GOING RAMPANT AROUND THE GLOBE, AND HIS CHAMPIONING DEMOCRACY, OPEN DEBATE, SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH.

YOU KNOW, HE IS -- ON CLIMATE CHANGE -- HE HAS BEEN REALLY, IT "THE GUARDIAN" CALLED HIM THE MORAL VOICE OF THE WORLD.

SO, THESE THINGS, I DON'T THINK, WERE BEING HIGHLIGHTED ENOUGH, BUT ALSO, IT IS NOT JUST IN A VACUUM 20 OR 30 YEARS AGO WHEN WE WOULD HAVE HAD THE UNITED STATES BEING SIDE-BY- SIDE WITH SO MANY OTHERS ON THESE KINDS OF CAUSES, BUT THAT IS NOT THE WORLD WE LIVE IN ANYMORE.

IT IS THE WORLD OF DONALD TRUMP, AND TRUMPISM IN SO MANY COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD, AND POPE FRANCIS REALLY STANDS AGAINST THAT.

>> IT IS INTERESTING.

EVEN, YOU KNOW, IN HIS SICK MONTHS AND DAYS, ET CETERA, THERE HAVE BEEN CLASHES BETWEEN THIS ADMINISTRATION -- ONLY A FEW MONTHS OLD -- AND THIS POPE, PARTICULARLY J.D.

VANCE.

HE WROTE POPE FRANCIS BEFORE HIS ILLNESS, A LETTER TO U.S. BISHOPS, HITTING BACK, AS YOU MENTIONED, THE POLICIES OF DEPORTATION, DEMONIZATION OF IMMIGRANTS.

SAID, WHAT IS BUILT ON THE BASIS OF FORCE AND NOT ON THE TRUTH ABOUT THE EQUAL DIGNITY OF EVERY HUMAN BEING BEGINS BADLY, AND WILL END BADLY.

OF COURSE, THE COUNTERPART IS THAT J.D.

VANCE HAD SAID, THE IDEA OF CHRISTIAN LOVE -- LOVE THY NEIGHBOR -- HE WROTE THAT OTHERS, CATHOLICS, CHRISTIANS, SEEM TO HATE THE CITIZENS OF THEIR OWN COUNTRY AND CARE MORE ABOUT THE PEOPLE OUTSIDE THEIR OWN BORDERS.

IT SEEMS TO BE A REAL COMMUNAL, FISTICUFFS VERBALLY, ANYWAY, BETWEEN THIS MAN'S ADMINISTRATION AND THIS VATICAN IN THE U.S. >> VERY MUCH SO.

YOU COULDN'T FIND A BIGGER CONTRAST LOOK, WE HAVE J.D.

VANCE, HEADING OVER TO ROME THIS HOLY WEEK.HE IS GOING TO BE IN ROME FOR EASTER.

WHETHER HE WILL MEET WITH THE POPE OR NOT DEPENDS ON A LOT OF FACTORS, BUT AGAIN, J.D.

VANCE, A CATHOLIC, A NEW CATHOLIC, A BABY CATHOLIC, AS HE CALLS HIMSELF -- HE JUST CONVERTED A FEW YEARS AGO -- BUT HE IS DIRECTLY IN ATTACK OF THE POPE, CATHOLIC BISHOPS.

HE CALLED THEM GREEDY FOR TAKING FEDERAL MONEY TO HELP RESETTLE REFUGEES AND IMMIGRANTS.

THAT IS AN ASTONISHING KIND OF CONTRAST.

POPE FRANCIS, AGAIN, HIS PROPHETIC VOICE, AS I CALL IT, YOU KNOW, HE SEES THIS, AND HE IS GOING TO SPEAK OUT FOR THE LETTER YOU SPOKE ABOUT WAS SENT TO THE U.S. BISHOPS.

IT WAS SENT TO THE U.S. BISHOPS.

IT WAS A MESSAGE TO DONALD TRUMP .

BUT THAT WAS SENT A COUPLE OF DAYS BEFORE HE WENT INTO THE HOSPITAL WHEN HIS NEAR FATAL ILLNESS, AND HE CALLED OUT TRUMP, AND HE SPOKE ON BEHALF -- I THINK VERY IMPORTANTLY -- OF THE ROLE OF LAW, AND WHAT YOU SAID, THAT LINE YOU QUOTED, WHAT STARTS IN FORCE ENDS BADLY.

THAT IS A PROPHETIC STATEMENT IF THERE EVER WAS ONE BUT WILL HE BE A CASSANDRA.

HE ALSO THEM, AS YOU SAID, HE WENT AFTER SOMETHING THAT J.D.

VANCE HAD HIGHLIGHTED, THE ORDERING OF OUR LOVES, A KIND OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGICAL CONCEPT THAT VANCE GOT WRONG, SORT OF WEAPON NIGHT AS A SORT OF TRIBAL VERSION OF LOVE.

WE JUST CARE FOR OUR OWN, WHEREAS POPE FRANCIS SAYS, NO, THAT IS NOT THE GOSPEL, THAT IS NOT WHAT JESUS TAUGHT.

WE CARE FOR EVERYONE.

>> TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHERE THIS MIGHT HAVE COME FROM.

YOU KNOW, FROM POPE FRANCIS, HAD HUMBLE BEGINNINGS, A BOOK WAS WRITTEN ABOUT HIM CALLED "THE OUTSIDER," HE WAS THE SON OF IMMIGRANTS, HE WENT FROM -- THEY WENT FROM FASCIST ITALY TO ARGENTINA.

GIVE ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT HISTORY AGAIN, PERHAPS, PROBABLY CERTAINLY, SHAPES HIS WORLDVIEW.

>> YEAH.

I THINK YOU HIT ON IT, THAT BOOK, "THE OUTSIDER," BY CNN'S CHRIS LAMB, THE TITLE REALLY ENCAPSULATES IT.

UNDERSTAND, I WROTE THAT OP-ED FOR "THE TIMES" FOR THE 12th ANNIVERSARY OF HIS ELECTION AS POPE.

THE ELECTION OF JORGE MARIO- PICCOLI, CARDINAL ARCH BISHOP IN BUENOS AIRES, ARGENTINA.

THE FIRST POPE FROM THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE, THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY, FIRST PITCHES WHAT POPE, THE FIRST POPE TO TAKE THE NAME OF FRANCIS AFTER FRANCIS OF THE CC.

AND THE REASON HE HAS SHAKEN UP THE VATICAN AND THE CHURCH SO MUCH, AND TRIED TO REFORM THE CHURCH IS BECAUSE HE COMES FROM THE OUTSIDE.

HIS PARENTS, AS YOU MENTIONED, HE IS THE SON OF ITALIAN IMMIGRANTS WHO LEFT FASCIST ITALY, AND MIGRATED.

THEY WERE IMMIGRANTS TO ARGENTINA.

SO, HE IDENTIFIES VERY MUCH WITH THOSE WHO ARE SUFFERING, THOSE WHO ARE ON THE OUTSIDE.

SO, WHEN HE WAS ELECTED POPE, HE TOOK A LOOK AROUND HIM AND HE SAID, THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE BUSINESS AS USUAL.

WE NEED TO BE A PROPHET IN THE WORLD, BUT WE CANNOT DO THAT WITH ANY AUTHENTICITY UNTIL WE REFORM OURSELVES, UNTIL WE REFORM THE CHURCH ITSELF.

THAT REFORM OF THE CHURCH ITSELF IS REALLY UPSET A LOT OF CATHOLICS .

AMONG THEM, AMERICAN CONSERVATIVES LIKE J.D.

VANCE.

>> LET ME -- MAYBE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, HE HAS BEEN SO IDENTIFIED -- THIS IS POPE FRANCIS -- WITH THE DISPOSSESSED -- AS WE ALL REMEMBER, HE WENT TO HIS FIRST TRIP, LAMPEDUSA, THE ISLAND OFF THE COAST OF ITALY, WHERE ALL THE MIGRANTS WOULD COME FROM NORTH AFRICA.

HE CELEBRATED MASS ON AN ALTAR MADE FROM THOSE WOODEN REFUGEE BOATS.

HE BEGGED GOD'S FORGIVENESS FOR, QUOTE, THE INDIFFERENCE SHOWN TO THE SUFFERING OF IMMIGRANTS.

HE SAID, THEY WERE LOOKING FOR A BETTER PLACE FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES.

SO, HE HAS REALLY, REALLY IDENTIFIED WITH THEM.

AS YOU SAY, IT HAS PUT HIM AT ODDS WITH A LOT OF CONSERVATIVES IN THE VATICAN, AROUND THE WORLD, AND EVEN IN PARTS OF AFRICA, AND ELSEWHERE, IN ASIA, AND OF COURSE, IN THE U.S. WHERE DOES THAT POWER STRUGGLE STAND RIGHT NOW, AS THE POPE IS IN HIS TWILIGHT TIME?

>> WELL, THAT POWER STRUGGLE IS GOING TO BE ANSWERED AND RESULT IN THE NEXT -- THAT IS THE BACKDROP TO, I THINK, EVERYTHING THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON.

THERE IS A LOT OF PUSHBACK, BUT REALLY, I THINK, THE OPPOSITION COMES LARGELY FROM THE UNITED STATES, THE ANGLOSPHERE, THE WEALTHIER CATHOLIC COMMUNITY'S, THAT ARE VERY SMALL, AND AMERICAN CATHOLICS HAVE TO REMEMBER, IF THEY DON'T REALIZE, THERE ARE ONLY FIVE OR MAYBE 6% THE GLOBAL CATHOLIC UNITY.

THE WIDER CATHOLIC CHURCH, THE GROWING CATHOLIC CHURCH IN THE SUMMER -- SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE AND LATIN AMERICA, AND ASIA, THEY FIND WHAT POPE FRANCIS IS SAYING, THAT RESONATES WITH THEM.

THEY LOVE IT.

ON CLIMATE CHANGE, ON MIGRATION, ON REFUGEES, THINGS OF POVERTY, THINGS THEY DEAL WITH ALL THE TIME.

THE OPPOSITION, I THINK, IS REALLY A WEALTHIER CONSERVATIVE CATHOLICS, AND NORTHERN HEMISPHERE, BUT THEY HAVE THE MONEY, THEY HAVE THE INFLUENCE, AND THEY HAVE THE MEDIA, SOCIAL MEDIA MICROPHONE, AND THEY'RE HAVING A LOT OF INFLUENCE AS THIS KIND OF SHADOW CAMPAIGN HAPPENS BEFORE THE NEXT CONFLICT, WHENEVER THAT HAPPENS.

>> CAN I SAY, READING SOME OF MY NOTES, HE BASICALLY WROTE TO THE BISHOPS, TO THE U.S. BISHOPS, SAYING, DON'T LISTEN TO VICE PRESIDENT VANCE'S CONSTANT THEOLOGY RISING.

HE BASICALLY SAID, NO, THIS ISN'T OUR CHRISTIAN VALUES.

IT IS BEING TWISTED A LITTLE BIT.

THAT IS QUITE BOLD.

>> OF COURSE.

THAT IS THE GREAT THING ABOUT FRANCIS.

LOOK, WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING, PEOPLE SAYING, WHO IS GOING TO COME NEXT, TALKING A MONTH AGO, HE IS GOING TO DIE RIGHT AWAY, WHO IS GOING TO COME NEXT.

IS THERE GOING TO BE SOMEONE LIKE FRANCIS?

YOU HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF, WHAT IS POPE FRANCIS, WHO IS POPE FRANCIS, WOULD BE SOMEBODY LIKE HIM?

WHAT YOU REALLY -- APART FROM ANY PARTICULAR POLICY -- IT IS A LEADER, A POPE WHO IS BOLD, WHO WOULD SPEAK FORTHRIGHTLY, AND WRITE A LETTER LIKE THAT.

LOOK, THE POPE DOESN'T WANT TO PICK FIGHTS WITH POLITICIANS, BUT J.D.

VANCE, ALMOST LIKE BY COMING TO ROME AT EASTER TIME, J.D.

VANCE, BY CITING CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, CATHOLIC TEACHING, INVITED THE CATHOLIC HOPE, CATHOLIC LEADERS, TO CORRECT HIM WHEN HE GOT IT SO WRONG.

THEY ARE SAYING, LOOK, WE CAN TALK, DEBATE, TALK ABOUT POLICIES, TALK ABOUT POLITICS, ALL THESE KIND OF THINGS, BUT DON'T COME AT US WITH THE GOSPELS THAT YOU ARE REVERTING.

>> DAVID, POPE FRANCIS CAME ACROSS THIS OPPOSITION, AS YOU SAID, FROM CONSERVATIVE, MANY IN THE U.S.

THEY WERE HIS FIERCEST CRITICS, PEOPLE LIKE RAYMOND BERG.

HE HAD HIS SALARY PRIVILEGES REVOKED AT THE VATICAN, THEN THE BISHOP THAT WAS FIRED, AND ATTACKED THE POPE AND THE CHURCH'S STANCE ON SOCIAL MATTERS, ET CETERA.

HE REALLY HAS LAID A MARKER DOWN AND SAID, WHAT HE WILL TOLERATE AT THE LEADER OF THE FAITH, AND WHAT HE WON'T, BUT DO YOU THINK SOME OF THE OTHER STUFF THAT HE HAS DONE -- AS YOU MENTIONED -- YOU KNOW, MUCH MORE EXPRESSING OF THIS HEAT USING THE WORD TOLERANCE -- BUT MUCH MORE SYMPATHY AND ACCEPTANCE FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS, GAYS, ET CETERA WILL THOSE THINGS SURVIVE HIM?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

NO ONE KNOWS.

IT REALLY DEPENDS.

THE ROMANS HAVE A LOT OF GREAT THINGS ABOUT POPES.

FOR 2000 YEARS, THE ROMAN LIKE TO SAY, WHAT ONE POPE CAN DO, ANOTHER POPE CAN UNDO.

>> RIGHT.

>> YOU HAVE TO REALIZE, THE POPE IS THE TOP LEADER.

IT IS GREAT TO BE POPE.

BUT EVERYTHING HE DOES, ANOTHER POPE COULD, IN MANY RESPECTS, COME IN AND UNDO.

I THINK IT WOULD REAP GREAT DAMAGE ON THE REPUTATION OF THE CHURCH.SO, I THINK MANY OF THE THINGS HE HAS DONE ARE GOING TO BE REFORMS THAT ARE GOING TO REMAIN, BUT THERE IS A REAL BACKLASH, CONSERVATIVE BACKLASH, AGAINST SOME OF THESE THINGS HE HAS DONE, AND HE HAS BEEN VERY PATIENT WITH SO MANY OF THESE BISHOPS WHO ARE REALLY FIERCE ADVOCATES, CARDINAL BURKE, JOSEPH STRICKLAND, AS YOU MENTIONED, BUT AT A CERTAIN.

>>>, THE KIND OF FLASH OVER TO THOSE TYPE.

THEY'RE GOING TO OVERTURN.WHEN THEY SAY, YOU'RE NOT THE LEGITIMATE POPE WHEN YOU'RE THE POPE AND PREACHING HERESY, THOSE ARE THINGS THAT JUST KIND OF GO BEYOND THE PALE, AND HE HAS TO CRACK BACK ON THAT, BUT, YOU KNOW, HE HAS BEEN PATIENT WITH THEM, BUT WHEN THEY GO INTO A CONFLICT, WHEN THE CARDINALS GO INTO A CONFLICT, ARE THEY GOING TO SAY, LOOK, WE NEED TO READJUST, WE CAN'T HAVE THIS KIND OF, YOU KNOW, SOMEONE AS OUTSPOKEN AS THIS, WE NEED SOMEONE WHO CAN KEEP THESE RIGHT-WINGERS IN THE FOLD?

>> INTERESTING.

WE HAVE GOT 20 SECONDS.

WHAT WILL YOU MISS MOST, WHAT WILL THE WORLD MISS MOST ABOUT POPE FRANCIS?

>> THE HUMANITY OF FRANCIS, THE CHRISTIANITY OF POPE FRANCIS, AS THE PHILOSOPHER HANNAH ARENDT ONCE WROTE OF POPE JOHN PAUL THE 23rd IN THE 1960'S, HERE, WE FINALLY HAVE A QUESTION ON ST. PETERS THRONE.

I THINK THAT IS WHAT THE WORLD WANTS, AND THAT IS WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE.

>> DAVID GIBSON, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>>> IN HIS FIRST OFFICIAL APPOINTMENT SINCE EMERGING FROM HIS ILLNESS, POPE FRANCIS HAS MADE MOVE TO PUT THE ARCHITECT AND TONY GAUDI ON THE PATH TO SAINTHOOD.

LONG NICKNAMED "GOD'S ARCHITECT" FOR HIS LONG LIFETIME DEDICATION TO CREATING THE SOARING SPIRES AND CELESTIAL STAINED-GLASS WINDOWS IN THE HOLY FAMILY BASILICA IN BARCELONA, THE SPANISH VISIONARY IS NOW A STEP CLOSER TO CANONIZATION ALMOST A CENTURY AFTER HIS DEATH.

NOW, FROM THE CHANGING LANDSCAPE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO AN INCREASINGLY SECULAR AMERICA.

>>> OUR NEXT GUEST INSPIRED BY HER OWN CONVERSION TO JUDAISM, DECIDED TO DELVE INTO THE STORIES OF MILLENNIAL WOMEN WHO HAVE DISCOVERED ORGANIZED RELIGION JUST AS SO MANY OTHERS ARE TURNING AWAY FROM IT.

JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR CHELSEA OSGOOD JOINS MARTIN TO DISCUSS HER NEW BOOK, ".STRUNK," SEVEN WOMEN'S JOURNEY TOWARDS RELIGION.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> LET'S SET THE TABLE HERE.

A PEW RESEARCH CENTER HERE STUDY, SHOWING THE PERCENTAGE OF AMERICANS IDENTIFY AS HAVING NO RELIGION GROWS FROM 16% IN 2007 TO 29% IN 2021.

THAT IS ALL THE MORE REASON -- YOUR BOOK IS REALLY INTERESTING -- BECAUSE YOU EXPLORE THE JOURNEYS OF SEVEN WOMEN, ALL PEOPLE KIND OF IN THEIR 30s, MILLENNIALS, INCLUDING YOURSELF, WHO EACH TURNED TO ORGANIZED RELIGION AT A TIME WHEN A LOT OF THEIR PEERS ARE NOT.

SO, FIRST OF ALL, WHY ALL WOMEN , AND WHAT STARTED YOU ON THIS JOURNEY?

>> ONE QUESTION THAT AROSE EARLY ON FOR ME WAS I THOUGHT THAT MOST PEOPLE WOULD ASSUME THAT, IF YOU WERE A WOMAN, TO JOIN -- MOST ORGANIZED RELIGIONS -- WOULD BE TO KIND OF TAKE A STEP BACKWARD, IN TERMS OF YOUR OWN FREEDOM.

MOST INTEREST OPTIONAL -- INSTITUTIONAL RELIGIONS ARE FAIRLY PATRIARCHAL IN NATURE, OR THEIR STRUCTURES REMAIN FAIRLY PATRIARCHAL TO THIS DAY.

AND, I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, I CERTAINLY CAME OF AGE AND A TIME WHEN THERE WAS THE IDEA THAT WE HAD MORE AND MORE FREEDOMS, MORE AND MORE OPPORTUNITIES, AND SO, TO BE A WOMAN IS, SPECIFICALLY, TO ENTER THESE REALMS WHERE THERE WOULD BE HIGHER STANDARDS FOR ELASTICITY OR HIGHER STANDARDS FOR MAYBE THE NUMBER OF CHILDREN YOU WOULD HAVE, AND SORT OF LESS OPPORTUNITIES TO PARTICIPATE TYPICALLY IN YOUR FAITH BY HOLDING POSITIONS OF POWER, MAYBE, BUT THAT WAS A BIZARRE CHOICE.

MOST PEOPLE WOULD THINK OF THAT AS BEING A BIZARRE CHOICE.

THAT IS MOSTLY WHY I FOCUSED ON WOMEN.

THERE IS A TENSION -- A TENSION THERE WITH DATA -- THAT SHOW THAT WOMEN, MORE OFTEN, ARE THE ONES WHO CONVERT, OR WHO TEND TO BE MORE PREOCCUPIED WITH NOTIONS OF MEANING, AND TEND TO BE MORE ACTIVE IN THEIR FAITH WHEN THEY ARE RELIGIOUS.

>> AND GREW UP IN A SORT OF -- YOU DESCRIBE YOUR UP RINGING AS KIND OF DEEPLY SECULAR IN SOME WAYS, KIND OF ALMOST KIND OF ANTIRELIGIOUS, I WOULD SAY, SOMEWHAT, BUT CLEARLY SECULAR.

AND, THAT YOU ENDED UP, AS YOU PUT IT, DRAWN TO A JUDAISM THAT IS MYSTICAL, CONSERVATIVE, AND RIGOROUS.

SO, AS BRIEFLY AS YOU CAN, WOULD YOU JUST TELL US A LITTLE BIT?

>> SURE I'M NOT SURE I WOULD DESCRIBE MY CHILDHOOD ENVIRONMENT AS ANTIRELIGIOUS, SO MUCH AS JUST NEUTRAL TOWARDS RELIGION.

I GREW UP IN THE SUBURBS OF NEW YORK CITY AS A PRETTY SECULAR MILL YOU INSOFAR AS, YOU KNOW, THEY DIDN'T SEEM TO ME THAT ANYBODY DRIVING FORCE WAS THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEF.

PEOPLE CELEBRATED CHRISTMAS AND EASTER, BUT OUTSIDE OF THOSE THINGS, YOU NEVER REALLY HEARD OR SAW RELIGION BEING PRACTICED IN A WAY THAT WAS VISIBLE TO THE OUTSIDER.

I DECIDED REALLY, QUITE YOUNG, THAT GOD MUST NOT BE REAL, WENT THROUGH ALL THE QUESTIONING THAT PEOPLE SOMETIMES DO JUST HAPPENED TO ME MAYBE A LITTLE BIT EARLIER THAN A LOT OF PEOPLE.

I, IN MY TEENS AND EARLY-20S, I STRUGGLED WITH ANOREXIA.

IRONICALLY, IT WAS IN THOSE EARLY EXPERIENCES OF -- IN ONE HOSPITALIZATION IN PARTICULAR -- THAT I MET A NUMBER OF VERY OBSERVANT JEWS, AND I WAS SURPRISED .

I DIDN'T REALIZE THAT, IN A WAY, I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS POSSIBLE TO BE THAT RELIGIOUS IN THE WORLD AT THAT TIME.I THOUGHT THAT, YOU KNOW, RELIGION, EVEN FOR THE JEWISH PEOPLE THAT I HAD MET EARLIER ON IN MY LIFE, THEY HAD A RELATIONSHIP THAT LOOKED TO ME IN THE WAY THAT THE MOST CHRISTIANS I NEEDED.

THEY HAD A BAR MITZVAH OR MAYBE CELEBRATED RUSHES ON A OR YOM KIPPUR.

OUTSIDE OF THAT, WASN'T SOMETHING HE THOUGHT ABOUT ALL THAT OFTEN.

SO, THROUGH COLLEGE AND INTO MY EARLY AND MID-20s, IT WAS SOMETHING THAT I BECAME PROGRESSIVELY MORE INTERESTED IN.

I HAD FRIENDS IN SCHOOL WHO WERE , YOU KNOW, MIGHT LOOSELY CALL MODERN ORTHODOX, I LEARNED FROM THEM WHEN I WAS IN MY MID-20s.

I MET THE MAN I WOULD EVENTUALLY MARRY.

WHEN WE FIRST STARTED DATING, I GUESS, IN A WAY, I WAS LIKE, OKAY, THIS IS MY CHANCE.

I STARTED DOING SOME LEARNING WITH VARIOUS RABBIS WHO WERE VERY KIND TO GIVE ME THEIR TIME, AND TOOK A WILD TO REALIZE, OKAY, I THINK I WANT TO PURSUE THIS IN A WAY THAT IS REAL.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE WOMEN, BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL DIFFERENT.

THERE IS ANGELA, STARTED ATHEIST, QUEER IDENTIFY, STARTED OUT ATHEIST, JOURNALIST WITH RATIONALITY BELIEFS, DRAWN TOWARDS QUAKERISM IS WHERE SHE ENDS UP YOU TALK ABOUT LEAH, WHO IS A COMMITTED ATHEIST WHO ENDED UP CONVERTING TO CATHOLICISM.SO, WANT TO TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT LEAH AND WHAT HER STORY IS AND WHY SHE WAS DRAWN?

>> SHE WAS ACTUALLY QUITE WELL KNOWN IN THE RATIONALITY COMMUNITY, AROUND THE TIME OF HER CONVERSION, AND I DON'T KNOW IF PEOPLE KNOW WHAT RATIONALITY IS, BUT IT IS A SORT OF MODERATE, PHILOSOPHICAL , AND DIFFUSE NETWORK SCHOOL, IF YOU WILL, OF PEOPLE WHO TRY TO USE SYSTEMATIC REASONING TO COME TO MAKE THE BEST DECISIONS ACROSS THE BOARD.

MORAL DECISIONS, BUT ALSO ANY DECISION CAN APPLY THIS SORT OF REASONING TOO.

SO, LEAH WAS WELL KNOWN IN THIS COMMUNITY.

SHE WAS A BLOGGER WHO WROTE ABOUT ATHEISM, SHE WAS A DEBATER AT YALE, AND SHE, LIKE THE HEADLINES FOR THAT CHAPTER, WHOSE NAME IS ANGELA, SHE WAS VERY MORALLY QUESTIONING.

SHE ASKED HERSELF A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT MORALITY, AND I SHOULDN'T SAY, WAS, IS -- I ASSUME SHE STILL ASKS THESE QUESTIONS ABOUT MORALITY -- BUT SHE FELT THAT, I THINK, THERE WERE A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT REALLY NUDGED HER IN THE DIRECTION OF RELIGION.

SHE FELT VERY STRONGLY THAT MORALITY WAS SOMETHING THAT EXISTED IN THE WORLD, MEANING, LIKE, WE PEOPLE -- WE DIDN'T MAKE UP MORALITY.

WE DIDN'T DECIDE WHAT IS GOOD AND BAD, THAT IT EXISTS ELSEWHERE, BUT SHE KIND OF BRIDGED THE GAP FROM, OKAY, IF IT EXISTS ELSEWHERE, THEN WHY, OR HOW?

I CAN'T SEE IT THE WAY THAT I CAN SEE PLANTS, AND SO, THEREFORE, IF WE KNOW IT EXISTS SOMEWHERE, HOW COULD THAT BE POSSIBLE, AND THAT ULTIMATELY LED HER TO FEELING, YOU KNOW, THAT THAT WAS -- MUST BE GOD THAT CREATED THIS MORALITY, THAT MORALITY HAD AGENCY OF ITS OWN.

THIS IS ALSO VERY SUPPORTIVE OF THIS IDEA OF USING YOUR NATURAL REASONING TO GET TO POINTS OF IDENTIFIABLE MORALITY.

SO, I THINK THAT THAT PART RESONATED WITH HER.

>> OF COURSE, THEN, THERE IS SARA WHO EMBRACED SORT OF A PARTICULARLY KIND OF DEMONSTRATIVE FORM OF EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANITY.

THERE IS KATE, WHO BECAME A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS AFTER GOING UP -- SHE MORE THAN YOU KIND OF HAD A REAL KIND OF ANTIRELIGIOUS KIND OF UP BRINGING TO THE POINT WHERE, WHEN SHE STARTED STUDYING, YOU KNOW, MORMONISM, SHE WAS ACTUALLY AFRAID TO TELL HER PARENTS, BECAUSE SHE THOUGHT THEY WOULD BE MAD.

AND THEN, HANNAH, WHO BECAME A PARENT OF A KIND OF RIGOROUS TYPE OF PRACTICE OF ISLAM, LIKE , WE DON'T HAVE TIME TO TALK ABOUT ALL OF THEM, BUT I WAS GOING TO TELL YOU, I WAS PARTICULARLY FASCINATED BY HANNAH, BECAUSE SHE IS NOT FROM A MIDDLE EASTERN BACKGROUND, SHE IS NOT AFRICAN AMERICAN, WHICH ARE TO GROUPS THAT HAVE PARTICULARLY EMBRACED ISLAM SHE IS A VERY SORT OF WHITE PRESENTING CHRISTIAN TO THE POINT THAT SHE WILL WEAR A FULL COVERING.

THE QUESTION ARISES, IS THIS CULTURAL APPROPRIATION, RIGHT?

IF THIS IS NOT PART OF THE CULTURE, THEN TO WHAT DEGREE DOES YOUR EMBRACE OF IT MEAN THAT YOU ARE SORT OF KIND OF ADOPTING SOMETHING?

BUT SHE DESCRIBES IT AS A FEELING OF KIND OF GREAT PEACE THAT JUST FELT LIKE HOME WHEN SHE BECAME A PART OF THIS COMMUNITY.

>> YEAH.

I THINK THAT PART OF THE REASON I WAS DRAWN TO HER STORY SO MUCH IS THIS -- HATE TO USE THIS WORD AGAIN -- BUT THERE IS TENSION THERE TOO.

RIGHT?

IT IS NOT EASILY SOLVABLE.

MAYBE IT IS NOT A PROBLEM THAT REALLY NEEDS TO BE SOLVED.

ESPECIALLY OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, MAYBE IT IS SORT OF DYING DOWN NOW, BUT THERE WAS A TIME WHEN WE WERE ALL VERY SENSITIVE TO THE IDEA OF CULTURAL APPROPRIATION.

RIGHT?

SO, BUT THEN, WHAT DOES IT MEAN WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SOMEBODY WHO, OKAY, RELIGIOUS CONVERTS.

THERE IS ALWAYS A PATHWAY TO CONVERSION IN MOST STATES, AND THERE IS A PATHWAY TO CONVERSION IN ISLAM, BUT IN YOUR ALSO TALKING ABOUT TAKING ON CULTURAL JURISDICTION OF A PARTICULAR SUBSET OF INDIVIDUALS.

ACTUALLY, THOSE PEOPLE ARE, FOR THE MOST PART, PROBABLY QUITE HAPPY ABOUT THAT.

I THINK HANNAH IS A REALLY GOOD EXAMPLE OF ONE THING I HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT A LOT IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS EVEN, SINCE I PUT THE BOOK TO BED, REALLY, THAT RELIGION, SOMETIMES, WE WANT TO MAKE SENSE OF RELIGIOUS CONVERSION OR THINK ABOUT IT THROUGH A LENS THAT IS SOCIOLOGICAL OR ACADEMIC, BUT IN SOME WAYS, IT KIND OF DOESN'T REALLY FIT NEATLY INTO THOSE CATEGORIES.

IT CAN ALSO BE THOUGHT OF MORE AS, LIKE, THE ACT OF FALLING IN LOVE.

I THINK THAT SHE REALLY JUST FELL IN LOVE WITH ISLAM, AS SHE FELL IN LOVE WITH THIS PARTICULAR EXPRESSION OF ISLAM, BUT I THINK IT IS ALSO INTERESTING THAT, AS SHE HAS BEEN MUSLIM FOR LONGER, AND AS SHE ALSO RELOCATED, LIVES IN SAUDI ARABIA, AND AS -- >> WAIT, SAY THAT AGAIN.

MAKE SURE PEOPLE DIDN'T MISS THAT.

SHE LIVES IN SAUDI ARABIA NOW, AND UNTIL VERY RECENTLY, RELATIVELY, WOMEN WANT ALLOWED TO DRIVE.SHE MADE A BIG LIFESTYLE CHANGE.

>> YEAH.

>> THE MIDWEST, YOU KNOW.

>> YEAH.

SHE MOVED HERE AS A SINGLE YOUNG AMERICAN WOMAN, AND THAT IS REALLY, FOR LOTS OF DIFFERENT REASONS, THE DECISION THAT I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL FIND VERY CONFUSING, AND AS SAUDI ARABIA HAS CHANGED A LOT -- IT HAS CHANGED A LOT IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS -- SHE HAS ALSO CHANGED A LOT.

SHE NOW WEARS MOSTLY SCARS, SHE FOR FIVE YEARS WORE A NEW COP, TOTALLY COVERED FROM THE BOTTOM HALF OF HER FACE, THEN SHE STARTED TO MOVE A LITTLE BIT IN THE OTHER DIRECTION.

SHE REALLY FRAMES THAT AS A DECISION THAT DOESN'T REFLECT ANYTHING ABOUT HER RELATIONSHIP TO ISLAM.

I THINK SHE FEELS THAT -- I THINK SHE UNDERSTANDS WHY PEOPLE WOULD ASSUME THAT, BUT SHE DOESN'T FEEL THAT -- SHE FEELS LIKE THAT THIS IS PEOPLE PUTTING TOO MUCH EMPHASIS ON THE OUTSIDE, AND THAT HER HEART AND FAITH ARE IN THE EXACT SAME PLACE, BUT IT IS AN INTERESTING TRANSFORMATION, AND PART OF ME FEELS LIKE, YOU KNOW, I THINK, ESPECIALLY RIGHT AROUND THE TIME YOU CONVERT, IF YOU ARE SOMEBODY LIKE HANNAH, OR ME, AND YOU COME FROM A CULTURE THAT IS REALLY QUITE DIFFERENT FROM THE ONE YOU ARE JOINING, THERE IS THIS SENSE THAT YOU NEED TO BE REALLY, REALLY GOOD, AND YOU NEED TO, LIKE, JUST TRY TO LOOK LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE AND DO THINGS THE WAY EVERYBODY ELSE DOES, YOU KNOW, AND I THINK I TIME PASSES, MAYBE -- I DON'T WANT TO PUT WORDS IN HER MOUTH -- FOR ME, I THINK THERE IS A LITTLE BIT LESS OF THAT WHERE YOU FEEL MAYBE SOME GREATER SENSE OF OWNERSHIP.

>> THE OTHER REASON IT IS INTERESTING FOR SOME PEOPLE, I WOULD ARGUE, SOME PEOPLE THINK THE EMBRACE OF RELIGION, ESPECIALLY -- HOW CAN I SAY -- A TRADITIONALIST MANIFESTATION OF A RELIGION -- IS TO STOP ASKING QUESTIONS, AND SOME PEOPLE THINK THAT THAT IS WHAT THAT MEANS, TO GIVE UP JUDGMENT, TO GIVE UP THAT HARD OF YOURSELF, JUST TO FOLLOW, TO THAT QUESTION.

RIGHT?

>> SOMETIMES, I THINK IT IS.

THERE ARE TIMES IN MY RELIGIOUS LIFE WHERE I DO JUST SAY, OKAY, THIS IS WHAT I'M TOLD TO DO.

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

THIS IS HOW IT IS GOING TO BE THERE ARE SOME RELIGIONS, I THINK, THAT ARE EVEN MORE EXPLICIT ABOUT THAT, WHERE THERE ISN'T REALLY ANY WIGGLE ROOM.

IN JUDAISM, BECAUSE IT IS NOT A SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY, BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY VOICES AND SO MUCH TEXT, YOU CAN FIND LOTS OF DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND LOTS OF DIFFERENT WAYS, BUT THAT IS NOT THE CASE FOR EVERYTHING, BUT I THINK WITH THE OTHER WOMEN'S STORIES, I 1 TO SHOW, THEY ARE ALL HUMAN.

EVEN WHEN YOU ARE BECOMING A PART OF A COMMUNITY, YOU KNOW, ADOPTING A THEOLOGY THAT LOOKS SO STATIC, AND SET ON PAPER, THAT THAT SORT OF PROCESS OF FIGURING OUT HOW TO LIVE AND FIGURING OUT YOURSELF DOESN'T STOP JUST BECAUSE YOU DO THAT.

I THINK THEY WOULD ALL AGREE WITH ME ON THAT.

>> SO, THE WOMEN YOU PROFILED, INCLUDING YOU, ARE STILL TOTALLY YOUNG.

DID YOU FIND A THROUGH LINE, BECAUSE THESE WOMEN ARE ALSO DIFFERENT, AND THESE EXPERIENCES TOOK A LONG TIME?

THIS WASN'T LIKE THEY WOKE UP ONE MORNING, THIS IS IT, NONE OF THAT WAS THE CASE, AS YOU DESCRIBED IT.

SO, DID YOU SEE A COMMON THREAD HERE?

>> I THINK THERE IS ONE CHARACTERISTIC EVERYBODY SHARED.

I THINK THERE WERE COMMONALITIES THAT DIFFERENT PEOPLE SHARED.

YOU KNOW, OR, LIKE, YOU COULD FIND GROUPINGS.

FOR EXAMPLE, THE DESIRE TO FIND A WAY TO EVALUATE ONE'S LIFE, OUTSIDE OF WHAT YOU MIGHT CALL, LIKE, MODERN IDEOLOGIES.

DIFFERENT WAYS OF THINKING OF ONE'S SELF AS A HUMAN WITH WORTH THAT DIDN'T HAVE TO DO WITH YOUR STANDING, OR THINGS LIKE THAT, SORT OF ANOTHER ONE WAS LIKE AN INTERESTING HISTORY OR A PAST WE SORT OF HAVE THE DESIRE TO FEEL CONNECTED TO A CHAIN THROUGH HUMAN EXISTENCE.

IF I HAD TO PICK ONE THING THAT REALLY BOUND EVERYBODY TOGETHER, I THINK WHAT I SAID EARLIER PROBABLY GETS THAT THE BEST, THAT THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO, LIKE, WHO JUST FELL IN LOVE.

THEY FOUND SOMETHING THAT THEY LOVED, AND THEY WERE WILLING TO GO LEASES TO HAVE THAT THAT, LIKE, MIGHT LOOK STRANGE FROM THE OUTSIDE, BUT PEOPLE DO THIS KIND OF THING ALL THE TIME WHEN THEY FALL IN LOVE WITH A PERSON, YOU KNOW, OR, SO, I THINK THAT IS THE THING THAT REALLY CONNECTS THEM TO EACH OTHER.

>> I REALIZE THAT, IN THE COURSE OF REPORTING OR RESEARCHING THIS BOOK, YOU HAD TO GO OUT OF YOUR COMFORT ZONE AS A PERSON WHO OBSERVES AN ORTHODOX PRACTICE OF JUDAISM.

YOU WOULD NOT BE GOING TO CHRISTIAN CEREMONIES OR OTHER RELIGIOUS -- SPECIFICALLY RELIGIOUS CEREMONIES -- FOR OTHER RELIGIOUS GROUPS.

RIGHT?

THAT IS IS NOT A THING.

>> YEAH.

>> SO, YOU HAD TO DO THAT.

FIRST OF ALL, HOW DID YOU NAVIGATE THAT?

DID YOU PRAY OVER IT?

DID YOU SEEK GUIDANCE FROM YOUR KIND OF RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY ABOUT HOW TO THINK ABOUT THAT?

AND THEN, I HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION.

>> SO, I DID SEEK SOME GUIDANCE ABOUT HOW TO DO THAT.

PART OF THE DIALOGUE IS MY JOB.

SORT OF GENERALLY -- WHEN I HAVE WRITTEN SMALLER ARTICLES AND ESSAYS -- I DON'T ONLY WRITE ABOUT JUDAISM.

I WRITE ABOUT OTHER THINGS.

WHEN I DO THAT, I DON'T KNOW.

I AM A NOSY PERSON.

YOU KNOW, LIKE, I AM INTERESTED .

IT IS AN INTERESTING FACET OF MY LIFE THAT I'M INTERESTED IN -- PART OF THIS COMMUNITY THAT, IN SOME WAYS, CAN BE INSULAR.

NOT MY IMMEDIATE COMMITTEE, BUT ORTHODOXY AS A WHOLE, CERTAINLY CAN BE INSULAR.

BUT, I AM ALSO -- I AM VERY CURIOUS ABOUT OTHERS, HOW THEY LIVE, AND ACTUALLY, I THINK ALL OF MY ONES ARE THE SAME.

>> MY FINAL QUESTION FOR YOU, YOUR EXPERIENCE OF THIS DEEP IMMERSION IN OTHERS' FAITH WIFE, DID THAT CHALLENGE YOU AT ALL?

>> I HAVE A LOT OF LOVE AND RESPECT FOR THE PEOPLE WHO MADE THESE ENORMOUS CHANGES IN THEIR LIVES.

AND I FELT REALLY UNDERSTOOD BY THEM IN MANY WAYS.

WE HAD A LOT OF HUGE POINTS OF CONVERGENCE IN OUR EXPERIENCES OF DOING THESE THINGS THAT, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, LIKE, SORT OF LOOK AT RATIONAL -- AND A LOT OF THE WAYS OUR LIVES CAN BE SORT OF SIMILAR, EVEN THOUGH SOME OF THE UNDERPINNINGS OF THOSE LIVES ARE VERY DIFFERENT.

YOU KNOW, IF I AM TALKING TO SOMEBODY WHO IS ON HIS, AND SHE BELIEVES, OBVIOUSLY, JESUS IS OUR SAVIOR, BUT ALSO, THEN WE CAN TALK ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO JOIN THESE HIGH-BAR CULTURAL SITUATIONS WHERE, ALL OF A SUDDEN, WE ARE EXPECTED TO UNDERSTAND THE CODED ACTION AND LANGUAGE THAT WE DIDN'T HAVE ACCESS TO BEFORE, SO, I DO WANT TO SAY THAT I WAS CHANGED BECAUSE I HAD MORE RESPECT AND AFFECTION FOR THAT KIND OF AN EXPERIENCE.

I FEEL LIKE I ALWAYS HAVE, BUT I DEFINITELY FEEL THAT STRONGLY NOW, IF THAT MAKES SENSE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, KELSEY OSGOOD.

>> THANKS.

>> FINALLY TONIGHT, REACHING FOR THE HEAVENS IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

>>> TO PROFESSIONAL MOUNTAINEERS WHO SHATTERED A DECADES-OLD RECORD, SCALING THREE OF THE SWISS ALPS' MOST CHALLENGING WEEKS, STARTING OFF IN COMPLETE DARKNESS, THE CLIMBERS SAY IT WAS SURREAL TO DISCOVER THEY HAD TACKLED THE FORMIDABLE NORTH FACES OF THE IGER MONCH AND YUFRAU BY A PREVIOUS RECORD OF ALMOST 10 HOURS.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM.

SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR FOR MORE.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOODBYE FROM LONDON.